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Pistol Braces & The ATF: What You Need to Know [UPDATED]

We’re diving into the long-standing beef between pistol braces and the ATF to get you spun up on all the info you need to know.

Heard about the ATF taking on pistol braces but feel a little lost as to what’s going on?

With the sides battling on and off for years, it can be easy to feel overwhelmed and confused as to what’s legal and where the ATF actually stands on braces. 

Faxon Ion Pistol Brace
Faxon Ion Pistol Brace

Well, instead of making you scour the internet, we made things easy with a top-to-bottom look at pistol braces and the ATF.

We’ve pulled all the essential info together to walk you through the brace’s humble beginnings, how AR pistols got involved, and the long-standing feud with the ATF over what you can (and can’t do) with a brace.

Buckle up. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.

So Much Drama

Table of Contents

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Disclaimer: We are not lawyers, and this is not legal advice. Always consult an attorney when it comes to firearms regulations and local/state laws.

Article updated 2/6/2023

FAQ: Explaining the Final Ruling on Stabilizing Braces [2023]

On January 13, 2023, the ATF officially declared its stance on braces publishing new criteria regarding stabilizing braces. 

SB Tactical FS1913 Folding Brace
All this over a little accessory.

Final Rule 2023R-08F clarified that a rifle is a firearm with a barrel measuring 16 inches or more that is designed to be fired from the shoulder — that includes any accessory, component, or rearward attachment that “provides surface area that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder, provided other factors, as listed in the definition, indicate the weapon is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.”

TLDR: if the rifle’s barrel is under 16 inches and it wears a brace, it’s an SBR under the new guidelines. 

ATF says size matters…

If you feel like reading through 300 pages of the ATF’s argument…check out the ruling here.

On January 31, 2023, the Final Rule for Stabilizing Braces was published, meaning that possessors of rifles or pistols with these devices have 120 days to register them.

There’s been a lot of confusion regarding the rule and what it means for gun owners, so we thought a quick Q&A might help you navigate those.

Insert sad face emoji here

Q: Do I have to register my braced firearm as an SBR under the new rule?

A: Depends…if it’s got a barrel over 16 inches and the overall length of the firearm is at least 26 inches, it does not fall under the NFA and therefore doesn’t have to be registered.

But, if you have a braced AR pistol with a barrel under 16 inches and an overall length less than 26 inches, it now qualifies as an SBR. You have a few options at that point:

  • Permanently remove or alter the brace so that it can’t be reattached
  • Add a barrel longer than 16 inches
  • Use an e-Form 1 or paper Form 1 to register it as an SBR
  • Turn it in to your local ATF office
  • Destroy the firearm

The ATF clarified that it does not regulate accessories so braces can still be sold separately as accessories…but braces cannot be sold on a firearm with a barrel under 16 inches without the proper NFA paperwork and transfer process.

AKV triangle brace
AKV triangle brace

Q: If I register, how long do I have, do I have to pay the $200 tax, and does the gun need to be marked?

A: The Final Rule was published on Jan. 31, 2023, so owners have 120 days to register them – making the deadline May 31, 2023.

The ATF is waiving the $200 tax for pistols and rifles with braces for applications received between Jan. 31 and May 31. If you register after May 31, you will be subject to the $200 tax. There is no limit on the number of firearms you can register.

ATF Tax Stamp
ATF Tax Stamp

Also, if you own a lower receiver with a factory-installed brace, you will have to pay the $200, as the exemption is only applicable to already completed firearms.

Traditionally, if you make an SBR, you must mark it, but the ATF says that no additional marking is required so long as the gun is already stamped with the manufacturer’s information.  

Q: What’s the process time?

A: The ATF said it’s adding “additional internal resources” to handle the influx of e-forms and that forms that fall under the Final Rule will be processed separately from suppressors and other e-forms.

Suppressor ATF Stamp
Suppressors will be in a different queue…

That said, the Bureau was not able to give any estimate on how long the wait for approval will be. So, you’re guess is as good as ours.

Q: I just ordered a braced firearm, and it’s in transit…what do I do?

A: FFLs expecting a braced firearm have been advised to refuse the package or call their local ATF agent and turn the package in.

Consumers will not be able to take possession of a braced firearm as of Jan. 31, 2023. The ATF has advised that FFLs can remove the brace and transfer firearms without those. Alternatively, the customer can file an e-Form 1 or paper Form 1 in order to get the braced firearm.  

Q: I’m disabled, can I own a braced firearm without registering?

A: Short answer, no. The ATF says there are no exceptions for disabilities in the NFA. So disabled shooters will have to bring the firearm into compliance just like everyone else.

 Q: I live in a state that has an SBR ban…so what now?

A: The ATF refuses to comment on state laws and suggests you speak to the attorney general of your state for next steps. That said, if you submit any Form 1 in a state with an SBR ban, the application will be denied by the ATF.

.300 BLK AR-15 Pistol, 9-Inch Ballistic Advantage
.300 BLK AR-15 Pistol, 9-Inch Ballistic Advantage

Q: Does a buffer tube count as a brace?

A: The ATF clarified that a buffer tube is necessary to the operation of the firearm; therefore, it does not count as a brace.

Q: Can gunsmiths work on braced firearms?

A: Firearms that are braced and meet the ATF regulations as an SBR cannot be transferred to a gunsmith for work until the firearm is brought into compliance through removal of the brace or approved registration with the ATF.

Once it is brought into compliance, gunsmiths can work on the firearm.

The ATF has published an FAQ section on their site devoted to this ruling, and we encourage you check that out for more info!

Lawsuits Inbound

Not long after the Final Ruling was announced, the Department of Defense was hit with several lawsuits.

Firearms Policy Coalition was among the first to launch the attack against the Ruling, challenging that the ATF does not have the authority to write new laws.

BT APC9 Pro SB Tactical Brace
BT APC9 Pro SB Tactical Brace

A similar argument was recently used to overturn the Trump-era bumpstock ban.

In addition to the FPC suit, a group of military veterans from Texas and Wisconsin have also sued the Biden administration over the brace ruling.

In their challenge, the group points to Separation of Powers to allege that the Bureau does not have the ability to enact laws without authorization from Congress.

What is a Pistol Brace?

Before we dive into the nitty-gritty, let’s take a look at braces and get a solid understanding of what they are and how they differ from a buttstock.

A pistol brace, also known as a stabilizing brace, is an accessory that attaches to the rear of the gun and allows the firearm to be fired one-handed.

A pistol brace on the end of a Springfield Saint.

It basically slips around the forearm of the shooter and, using Velcro, secures to the arm. The goal is to stabilize the gun as you’re firing.

It gained steam, especially among disabled shooters, because it allowed them to control and fire AR and AK carbines safely.

Using the Roni brace
A Micro Roni with brace. Note how the brace fits on the forearm.

In fact, the inventor of the brace, SB Tactical’s Alex Bosco, came up with the idea in 2012 after shooting at a range with a disabled combat veteran and witnessing the struggles disabled shooters face.

Despite a certain cool factor, braces actually help gun owners who struggle using full-length, shouldered rifles enjoy AR-style firearms comfortably.

Brace vs. Buttstock

What makes a brace different from a buttstock?

The critical element comes down to how a brace and buttstock are used.

A buttstock fits against the shoulder, allowing for better management of the rifle’s recoil. But it is not secured to the shooter in any way.

BCM Gunfighter Stock on Recce-16
A buttstock rests against the shooter’s shoulder.

As we mentioned earlier, a pistol brace uses Velcro to attach to the shooter’s forearm.

It provides stability while firing the AR pistol.

Using the Recover Tactical 20/20 brace
Using the Recover Tactical 20/20 brace.

Pistol braces have opened up a world of accessories and options to gun owners who need a way to stabilize the AR pistol but don’t have the means or want to add a buttstock (or pay for the SBR classification…more on that in a minute.)

Understanding AR Pistols and SBRs

Again, before heading into the tangled legal battles surrounding the ATF and braces, we need to make a pit stop and discuss AR pistols.

Let’s face it, braces and AR pistols go together like PB&J.

So, we can’t talk about one without spending a little time diving into the other.

Three AR-Pistols
Three AR-Pistols

AR Pistols

Put simply, an AR pistol is an AR-style firearm shrunk down to meet the ATF’s definition of a pistol.

Thanks to a bit of vagueness on the Gun Control Act’s part, AR pistols are able to occupy a weird space between pistols and short-barreled rifles.

As long as the firearm measures less than 26 inches in overall length and features a barrel length of 16 inches or less AND does not come with a buttstock or vertical foregrip, it falls into the AR pistol realm.

1449
at Faxon Firearms

Prices accurate at time of writing

Prices accurate at time of writing

Available Coupons

But to reiterate, an AR pistol cannot use a buttstock.

A brace, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.

A 2014 letter by the ATF determined that adding a brace to an AR pistol would not move it into SBR territory. A braced AR pistol would still be considered a pistol.

Best AR-15 & AK Pistol Braces
AR and AK pistols alongside their buddies.

Now, that ruling would be called into question a few times, eventually coming to a head in 2020, but we’re getting ahead of ourselves…

Short Barreled Rifles

While we’re on the topic of shorty firearms, we should also discuss short-barreled rifles and how they differ from AR pistols. Honestly, they look very similar, and it can be confusing to differentiate between the two.

By definition, an SBR, or short-barreled rifle, is also a firearm with a barrel under 16 inches.

But up until recently, there’s been one major difference between an AR pistol and an SBR — the addition of a buttstock.

Adjustable AR-15 Buttstocks
Yeah, don’t slap one of these on an AR pistol.

Unlike an AR pistol, SBRs may sport a buttstock for shouldering. And this is where the ATF gets involved.

SBRs fall under the National Firearms Act and are, therefore, regulated by the ATF.

To own, there’s an entire ATF process a gun owner must go through first. This includes filling out paperwork, undergoing a background check, fingerprinting, and paying a $200 tax to the ATF.

short barreled rifle
Get ready to pay a $200 tax on this bad boy.

After a waiting period, the gun owner eventually receives a tax stamp. That stamp allows for legal ownership of the SBR.

Waiting periods can be as short as a couple of months or as long as a year, depending on the ATF’s backlog.

Why an AR pistol over an SBR?

Basically, an AR pistol undergoes the exact same process as a regular gun purchase.

You roll up to your local FFL to choose your model or buy online and ship to an FFL to handle the transfer.

It’s that easy. No waiting periods, no $200 fee.

Used Gun Sites
Doing a little internet shopping…

Braces can also be legally purchased as accessories and added to an existing AR pistol by the owner. Again, there are no extra steps like you’ll see with an SBR purchase.

Pair of AR-15 Pistols
Not the same as an SBR…score!

So now that we have a good grasp on AR pistols and braces let’s explore the contentious relationship between braces and the ATF.

ATF’s Stance Through the Years

At the heart of the brace debate rests SB Tactical – inventor and makers of the most popular pistol braces.

From AR to AK pistols, SB Tactical has supplied the industry with a bevy of braces for several years.

Founded in 2012, the company did its due diligence asking the ATF for input on the brace design before launch.

SB Tactical Patent Schematic
SB Tactical Patent Schematic

The ATF initially cleared the device, stating that “the submitted brace, when attached to a firearm, does not convert that weapon to be fired from the shoulder and would not alter the classification of a pistol or other firearm.”

By 2013, SB Tactical had partnered with Sig Sauer and Century Arms in exclusive sales agreements for the SB15 and SB47 braces. By May, the first Pistol Stabilizing Braces were hitting the firearms marketplace.

The ability to lend control and stability to AR pistols made braces a popular accessory.

Given the design, some users soon took to shouldering the brace, which led to confusion as to whether this moved the AR pistol into SBR territory.

Check out Johnny B wield a few AR-15 braces below.

2014: Shoulder that Brace, Says the ATF

In 2014, the ATF clarified that even when shouldered, a braced AR pistol did not constitute an SBR. An AR pistol was an AR pistol despite how the shooter used the brace.

It was all smooth sailing, or so it seemed…

Ralphie Danger

2015: The ATF Changes Course

Just before SHOT Show 2015, the ATF published a letter reversing its 2014 stance on braces.

In the decision, the Bureau clarified that braces were not designed for shouldering, and to do so would create an SBR, not an AR pistol.

so now what

This caused a myriad of confusion as it contradicted the earlier 2014 decision by the agency.

Ultimately, Sig Sauer and SB Tactical waged a two-year battle with the ATF, for clarification on the sudden about-face.

Game of Thrones Battle

2017: ATF Backs 2014 Ruling

After fighting with SB Tactical and Sig Sauer for a couple of years, the ATF would ultimately back down and change direction…once again.

In 2017, the Bureau reverted to its previously held belief that firing a pistol brace from the shoulder does not reclassify the gun.

Notebook What Do You Want
Us and the ATF

The issue seemed to be at rest, but gun owners were still feeling uneasy…

If the ATF could change its mind so quickly, what would stop the agency from flipping again?

2020: Q and the Honeybadger

After a few years, it looked like the brace debate was finally put to bed; but in a startling twist of fate, the ATF reignited the brace debate in 2020.

Taking the form of a legal battle between Q’s Honeybadger and the ATF, braces entered the limelight again in August.

Honeybadger AR Pistol
The Honeybadger Pistol by Q.

On August 3, 2020, gun maker Q received a cease-and-desist letter from the agency regarding its Honeybadger AR pistol.

The order indicated that the Honeybadger, in large part due to the SB Tactical pistol brace, was an SBR – not an AR pistol. Therefore, it fell under the NFA, and all owners would need to register with the ATF.

Looks like the ATF is NOT happy…

This decision effectively turned Honeybadger owners into violators of the NFA overnight.

Q moved swiftly, encouraging owners to disassemble the Honeybadger or register it with the ATF (which they offered to pay the $200 fee for).

Honey Badger Pistol Extended
I mean, how can you be mad at this?

Meanwhile, the company took the ATF on, asking for clarification on the matter.

Things began heating up as gun owners protested the ATF decision, and it wasn’t long until the Department of Justice stepped in.

After calls to senators and pressure from citizens, the DOJ called for a 60-day hold, pushing an official ruling until after the November 2020 presidential elections.

Gun owners held their breath and waited…

Gordon Ramsey Suspense

ATF Proposals…and Withdraws

Two months passed with radio silence from the ATF until, in mid-December, a new proposal published in the Federal Registrar.

The 16-page document addressed AR pistols/braces offering “proposed guidance” on classifying weapons with stabilizing braces.

The ATF gave citizens just 17 days to make their opinions known via online, public comments.

Backlash was immediate. Within days, comments totaled over 60,000 – mainly in opposition to the proposal.

Angry Mob
An accurate portrayal of the comments section.

By December 22, Congress jumped into the fray with 90 House members publishing a letter to the ATF rejecting the proposal.

The letter stated, “This decision is alarming and jeopardizes law-abiding gun owners across the country.”

It went on to suggest that the proposal was “ambiguous” and “subjective.” Many of the feelings echoed by the gun community.

As gun owners clamored to fight the bureau’s proposal reclassifying braced AR pistols, they were in for yet another surprise.

Bernie Stinson Whhhat

On December 23, 2020, less than a week after the proposal’s unveiling, the Department of Justice reversed course and promptly withdrew the proposal.

Though it’s important to note the proposal is still “pending further review” meaning that it could resurface at a later date.

2021: ATF At It Again

In June 2021, the ATF struck again. This time, the agency aimed to redefine rifles, excluding AR pistols and braces from the definition. Instead, it would move braced-AR pistols into short-barreled rifle territory.

The Department of Justice said the reclassification would “clarify when these attached accessories [braces] convert pistols into weapons covered by these heightened regulations [the NFA].”

To accomplish this, the ATF proposed a points system to help gun owners determine whether their builds fell into SBR territory and would, therefore, be swept under the National Firearms Act. (Remember, an NFA designation means longer wait times, more paperwork, and a $200 tax stamp fee.)

Points Systems ATF
(Photo: Kalash Lover via Instagram)

Points System

So, what was involved in this new point system exactly?

The new system starts by requiring the firearm in question to be at least weigh 64 ounces with an overall length between 12 and 26 inches.

This starting point ensures you’re working with at least a non-NFA firearm in the first place — because if it’s an NFA firearm under another category, then you need to apply for a tax stamp regardless.

After making sure you don’t already have an NFA item, the checklist goes through other features.

One to expect to see is whether the attached brace is intended to be fired from the shoulder. The idea being that if the brace essentially makes the pistol act like a rifle, then it should be considered an SBR instead of a pistol with a brace on it.

SBPDW Brace, Shortened
Get ready to start doing some math.

Even portions of the brace, like the “rear surface area,” are assigned points to determine if there is sufficient surface area on the rear to be used on the shoulder. 

The rules, unfortunately don’t seem to provide any definitive measurements on what is considered “minimal” surface area or even what amount of surface area differentiates between the points being assigned to each “minimal” versus a “large amount of surface area.” 

Family Guy Math
Me trying to decide if my AR pistols are rifles or pistols….

This ambiguity could potentially give lots of leeway to the ATF to arbitrarily decide that the brace is to be considered a stock and the pistol is actually an SBR.  

The checklist also goes through the different types of stabilizing support, assigning points to support systems, including the counterbalance, fin-type, and cuff-type braces. 

CA HD AR Strike Industry Megafin
CA HD AR Strike Industry Megafin

If going through the checklist results in too many points total, you lose the game. Your pistol with the stabilizing brace would fall under SBR territory. 

To get a handle on how difficult this points system can be, check out this fantastic video from Guns.com writers Ben Philippi and Chris Eger as they try to determine whether their AR pistols are legal under the proposed rules.

Final Thoughts

So, where does this leave brace and AR pistol owners? It

Essentially if you have a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches and a brace on that firearm, you have an SBR by the ATF’s accounts.

Group Picture of AR Braces
A whole lot of braces.

Should braces fall under the NFA or should they be a legal accessory? Sound off in the comments below. In the meantime, check out our roundup of the Best AR-15 & AK Braces.

PPT writer Paul Yen contributed to this story.

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384 Leave a Reply

  • Commenter Avatar
    Bobby Bunghole

    If it doesn't matter what gender one wants to identify with anymore, why should the length of your barrel?
    or what's attached to your butt?

    February 7, 2023 5:01 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Dank Oslo

    So, If I take off a 10" barrel and add a 16" barrel, and add a regular AR Buttstock will that suffice? God, I'm more confused than ever!

    February 7, 2023 12:51 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Jim

    It’s sad if you are Law Abiding Citizen and targeted by your own Government.Criminals roaming free.One who makes the Law,breaks the Law in favor of Politician who suppressed the Law Abiding Citizen.

    February 7, 2023 10:05 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Anthony Coleman

    So if you register your AR/AK pistol with the ATF can you take off the brace and add a buttstock?

    February 5, 2023 8:34 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Tom Vick

      Yep. Once it's registered as an SBR. You can brace it or put a stock on it. ATF has your money and knows your business, at this point they know longer care.

      February 5, 2023 12:20 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    BW Deadcat

    Where, in ratifying the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, did We The People consent to allow a bureaucratic entity [ATF] to make rules with the force of law?
    The NFA (1934) and GCA (1968), along with every federal, state, and local 'law' downstream from those statutes, are blatantly and demonstrably unconstitutional 2nd Amendment infringements.
    Marbury v. Madison (1803): 'Any law repugnant to the Constitution is no law...'
    Knee-jerk public outcry and 'feel-good laws' generated in response to a firearm-related mass-casualty event do not supersede the 2nd Amendment 'shall not be infringed' clause.

    February 4, 2023 9:25 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Tom Vick

      Congress has the Constitutional authority to create Bureaucracies or Departments at will. Congress' ability to create administrative agencies has come before the United States Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court has ruled that these agencies are constitutional. In sum, Congress has the authority to delegate its legislative power to administrative agencies and even to executive branch officers.

      February 5, 2023 12:25 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Larry Folds

        When dems have the WH and Senate, don't expect a bunch of cowering republicans to butt heads. Won't happen. Most of them are now in the same camp as it comes to the 2nd amendment. Republican politicians are more concerned about slapping Mayorkas around.

        February 5, 2023 10:45 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        BW Deadcat

        Congress alone has the power to make law.
        Article I, § 8, Clause 18:
        To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
        Nowhere in the above is it stated that Congress can pass legislative authority to unelected entities.
        Congress delegating legislative authority to bureaucrats is abdication of its Constitutionally vested power. Congress has effectively eliminated its purpose for existing.

        February 6, 2023 1:14 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Tom Vick

          I could not agree more. I was only making mention of a Supreme Court decision. This isn't the first time this issue has been brought up. If the Supremes back the Congressionally created agencies, the argument is no longer with the agency. It becomes a point of contention with the Court. The Article you quoted from is the one interpreted by the Court as giving Congress the power to create these agencies and give them authority to make rules that carry the weight of law. It's all about expediency because Congree can't give it's attention to everything it needs to. So we have Bureaucracies. They make law without calling it that. The only things these agencies and bureaus fear is Congress, which also has the authority to dissolve them.

          February 6, 2023 6:13 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Larry Folds

      We didn't! ATF is acting as an illegal champion for liberal, mostly democrat, rule. The SCOTUS is slow to act and may not even take it up as they didn't the bumpstick ban. We and the party have become cowed to the anti-2nd amendment crowd.

      February 5, 2023 10:42 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Ed

    Where does it say right to bear arms except for this kind of that kind I must have misread it.

    February 4, 2023 9:15 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Joey Driver

    My understanding is the reason for the change to SBR status for short barreled pistols is the actions of the 2019 Dayton Shooter. He shot and killed his transgender sibling and 8 other patrons using a short barrel AR-15 pistol with a 100 round drum mag attached that he purchased a few months before the shooting.

    Police were on the scene and neutralized the theeat within 32 seconds. He fired 42 rounds in less than 30 seconds, killing 9 and injuring 17 others.

    The new regulation would theoretically make it harder to obtain an easily concealable short barrel weapon and allow more time for a thorough background check. The ATF also just shut down private party transfers of the existing stockpile without an act of Congress.

    Concealability of a high powered weapon is what is being targeted by the ATF. In practical terms, now we will have to ask for permission from the ATF to cross state lines with our AR pistols. That's the only other reason I have them, freedom of travel. other than to accommodate my military disability.

    Doesn't matter that Virginia Tech and most mass shootings were perpetrated with a Glock 19 or other handgun.

    Anyway, after it's registered, I assume I can go ahead and attach a stock since it's already registered as an SBR? I guess that is the only bright side for current owners.

    Registration is definitely a delay and inconvenient, but I'm not sure it qualifies as an infringement.

    February 4, 2023 5:15 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Ty

    So before may 31st, you don’t have to pay the $200 tax from what I understand. If you already own a suppressor or any other NFA item, there’s really no reason not to do it, just my opinion since you’re already on the radar or list or what have you. You’d be 100% legal and more or less have an SBR without the $200 tax. I’m not a fan of the way it has been done, legal, not legal and such, but it’s to great of a risk to be on the wrong side of the law with a firearm. If (or really when) this is overturned, as it should be, just build another. Just my 2 cents.

    February 4, 2023 2:25 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Tom Vick

      It will most likely not be overturned. I don't agree with the ATF or DOJ, I think it is a nitpicking infringement of the 2nd. However here's what I found with a little searching. "Congress' ability to create administrative agencies has come before the United States Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court has ruled that these agencies are constitutional. In sum, Congress has the authority to delegate its legislative power to administrative agencies and even to executive branch officers." It also means that Congress can dissolve any agency or department that is not mandated by the Constitution, of which there are many.

      February 5, 2023 12:31 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Don Waddell

    Braces, SBRs and suppressors have no business being NFA items just because a bunch of unelected F-Tards pull this stuff out their asses. Major infringement on commonly possessed items by law abiding citizens.

    February 4, 2023 11:16 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Julien

    Shall not be infringed.
    Why have american administrations become such marxist hotbeds, making lists of their own citizens and turning them into enemies overnight???
    I didn't move here for that bs.

    February 4, 2023 10:19 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Paul

    What a load of BS! So the ATF can say for years that pistol braces are legal and then suddenly change their mind, especially now that they have an anti-gun/anti-second amendment administration to back them up??!! I’m sure lawsuits will be flying over this one. The ATF can’t even process an application for a suppressor or SBR in a reasonable amount of time so what the hell are they going to do when they get hit with 4-5 million plus applications for SBR’s??!! On top of it all is the fact that the ATF doesn’t have the power to make laws. Talk about government overreach…

    February 3, 2023 5:11 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Tom Vick

      No Govt. bureaucracy has the power to make law. Only Congress can do that. However, they are empowered to make rules that carry the weight of law. I found this in some research. "Congress' ability to create administrative agencies has come before the United States Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court has ruled that these agencies are constitutional. In sum, Congress has the authority to delegate its legislative power to administrative agencies and even to executive branch officers." DOJ was created by Congress July 1, 1870. ATFE July 1 1972. Both Agencies are still answerable to Congress, but are allowed to make rules interpreting law and carrying out the weight of law. Congress can does not have to weigh in on any rule making unless they want to. Same way with the Supreme Court, it does not have to hear a case or make a decision unless they want to. Sad. Congress also has the power to dissolve any Govt. agency not authorized by the Constitution.

      February 5, 2023 2:39 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Chuck Cochran

    There's also consideration of the 88 Day Rule in this that isn't mentioned. There's a You Tube video concerning this with a Lawyer covering the points. The general thought though had to do with the fact that if after 88 days, your approval hasn't gone through, it's automatically kicked out of the system. You are not notified you've been declined, and you are now in possession of contraband, and you'll learn of the decline when the Feds knock on your door to arrest you for possessing contraband.
    The Lawyer in the Video is very concerned that the so called "Grace Period" to register, is possibly a trap.

    This site won't let me share the link. But look up ATF Brace Rule Trap by Guns & Gadgets on you tube

    February 2, 2023 8:09 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Todd

    Jackie Billings, what does this mean: "Also, if you own a lower receiver with a factory-installed brace, you will have to pay the $200, as the exemption is only applicable to already completed firearms."
    A bit confused about this paragraph?

    February 2, 2023 7:31 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Sarah

      I understand it as the ATF is charging you to own the components of the SBR prior to putting it together. You can't register the component for the waiver in advance.

      February 3, 2023 10:15 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jacki Billings

      Happy to clarify! So the ATF says that lowers are not completed firearms; therefore, if you have a lower that shipped with a brace on it and it was not paired with an upper before Jan 30, 2023, then you would not qualify for the waived $200 fee. So to register it under the new rule, you would have to pay the $200 tax. Does that help?

      February 6, 2023 11:35 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Duane Coombes

    If someone legally purchased a complete .556 pistol w/10" barrel that came complete with a "Sig arm brace" & don't want to register it as a sbr. Can you legally remove 10" barrel and sig arm brace and replace w/ 16" rifle barrel upper and a carbine rifle adjustable stock and not be in violation. * Is it really legal to convert an "existing complete pistol upper & lower receiver gun" into a 16" carbine rifle using the original pistol lower receiver w/ a new 16" rifle barrel upper and carbine rifle stock ???
    I didn't think you could legally switch back from pistol to rifle from the original build without being in violation ??
    Thanks in advance for clarification.

    February 2, 2023 6:52 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jordan Burks

      yes, a pistol lower is just a lower. The issue is regarding barrel length. The ATF specifically says in the new rule that if you put a 16in barrel on it, you're good to go.

      February 3, 2023 8:45 am
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    Matt

    I don’t see any mention of “Other Firearms” that have a brace, forward vertical grip, and OAL greater than 26 inches. These are not registered as rifles or pistols. Anyone have any insight on these?

    February 2, 2023 6:15 pm
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    bdizzle

    so all i gotta do is just run a buffer tube with no brace? i mean...ok.

    Q: Does a buffer tube count as a brace?

    A: The ATF clarified that a buffer tube is necessary to the operation of the firearm; therefore, it does not count as a brace.

    February 2, 2023 6:06 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Joe

      People, remove the brace and leave the buffer tube. AR pistols are still legal. I have no intention of registering anything that I don't have to with the government. One day the registration lists will become confiscation lists.

      February 2, 2023 6:59 pm
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        tirod

        Far too many bloggers and clickbait artists are ignoring this: If you have an old school pistol - with the pistol buffer tube or even carbine - just take off the brace until this all shakes out. Simple as that.

        It's a regulation for BRACED pistols and has no application to one with no brace.

        February 2, 2023 7:42 pm
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        Larry

        Here something to ponder, I would say at least 98% of all uses of AR pistols are or will be used in the owner's home. Who will know whether you have a brace on your pistol? Just don't advertise it. ATF has already said they do not reregulate accessories. If you ever must use your pistol, you will probably be in your bedroom; if you are really worried about having used it, take it off and put it under the bed before the authorities arrive, just don't say anything. The ATF will never be involved with the case anyway.

        February 4, 2023 6:45 pm
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      Jacki Billings

      At this point, that's what the ATF is saying...

      February 6, 2023 11:36 am
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    Aye Ruckus

    Everyone realizes that this isn’t going to go through. One of our conservative circuit courts is going to file an injunction and it’s basically going to be thrown to the Supreme Court where it will be thrown out on the merit that you cannot make something that was once legal illegal or they will hold the lower courts decision. Plus like some of the disabled shooters out there this hits with ADA.
    At the end of the day guys this all about 2024. Old man dementia Biden wants something to run on saying that “because of these MAGA judges we can’t get gun control…come on man” or something like that.
    Keep your brace, write your Congress and senate reps and wait for this all to blow over.

    February 2, 2023 6:58 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Cal

      With you 100% on this one. Wait it out.

      February 2, 2023 7:33 pm
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      Richard J Nigosanti

      Agree 100%... there is a legal practice called the Legacy Law that provides you cannot be held accountable for something that you have been doing prior to the new law.

      February 4, 2023 10:59 am
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    jr

    I first do not understand why the American people are forced to listen to the ATF. title 33 list the agencies of the govn't. ATF is not in that list, they also have a Dun and Bradstreet #, they are a for profit corporation. i say write your representatives and ask for answers.

    February 2, 2023 2:03 am
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    Sam

    Super article Jacki. What about all the millions of PCC owners that have some kind of SB brace on their PCC? Is it now considered an SBR? If I read your article correctly, it probably does.

    February 2, 2023 12:12 am
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      Jacki Billings

      Thanks! And yes, it looks to be that way at this point in time. Basically, anything with a barrel less than 16 inches and a brace, the ATF is calling an SBR.

      February 2, 2023 8:04 am
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    Rando

    So… in the Bumpstock rule the ATF explicitly stated that only congress could authorize an amnesty to NFA registration requirements, so how did they magically find the ability to allow an amnesty this time?

    February 1, 2023 9:49 pm
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      Jacki Billings

      Your guess is as good as mine, but the lawsuits mounting against this regulation are pointing to the bumpstock case. So hopefully that helps us get an overturning of this rule sooner rather than later!

      February 2, 2023 8:05 am
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    John

    Its not a pistol stabilizing brace, its a shirt stabilizing device.

    February 1, 2023 3:36 pm
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    John

    This is probably going to be injunctioned. Case just filed.

    February 1, 2023 3:34 pm
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    Brett

    Anyone else pondered the thought that if we all just caved and said fine, it's an SBR how long it would take for 40 million applications to get processed? It takes 9 months to get 1 through the ATF. It'd take 90 years to get through 40 million......all the while legal gun owners would be barred from using their weapon. This flip flopping nonsense has to stop. The ATF doesn't get to make gun law, only enforce it. We need congress to end this asininity.

    February 1, 2023 11:12 am
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    Christian Montanez

    Scenario - AR pistol owner has ar pistol with brace, removes brace and ads a pistol buffer tube that cannot be turned into a regular shoulder stock, is that owner within the rules and does not have to register and pay tax stamp???

    February 1, 2023 12:23 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jacki Billings

      I attended an ATF meeting this morning, and per the ATF agent, a buffer tube is okay and does not require registration because it's necessary for the operation of the firearm. (This is not legal advice and I'm not an attorney so it's always a good idea to consult a lawyer.)

      February 1, 2023 12:52 pm
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    Nonayo Bidness

    The whole thing is ridiculous because SBR’s shouldn’t be NFA items in the first place. There is literally no common sense reasoning behind it.. you can own an AR rifle, you can own and AR pistol, but HEAVEN FORBID, you own something in between. What exactly about an SBR makes it any more or less dangerous? Remove SBRs from the NFA… thats the No holds barred fight that needs to be happening. Leave the braces for thoses who actually need them and let everyone else have their SBR.

    January 31, 2023 7:28 pm
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      Jordan Burks

      Forgotten weapons did a good video recently on how SBR's should have never been on the NFA to begin with. They were added to prevent a backdoor loophole for hand guns because originally it was handguns that were going to go on the NFA but when it got decided that hand guns would not go on the NFA they never took SBR"s off and here we are all these years later with SBR's on the NFA for no reason.

      February 3, 2023 8:49 am
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    Tom Lowe

    As a disabled shooter, this part applies to me, I think 'The ATF says the ruling does not impact braces that are used “as intended” by those with disabilities and not for shouldering.' I am one handed (left), and use the brace as intended - to provide additional stability while firing.

    If I don't get the stamp/registration because I am using it properly, will I be able to legally sell my weapon in the future? Will I have to get it registered at that point? Will it be a problem to have the potential buyer register it? Or will I have to convert (add) to the length to get it above SBR limits?

    Thanks, all!

    January 31, 2023 6:07 pm
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      Jacki Billings

      I attended an ATF meeting this morning and got some more clarification on this. So, disabilities are not exemptions under the NFA. If you have a braced firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches, it is now considered an SBR and must be registered...regardless of how you intend to use it. So you can either throw on a longer barrel, permanently remove and alter the brace so it cannot be reattached, turn the gun into the ATF, or destroy the firearm. Those are the options that were explained to me. (This is not legal advice and I’m not an attorney so it’s always a good idea to consult a lawyer.)

      February 1, 2023 12:57 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Tom

        Thanks, Jacki.

        February 2, 2023 4:57 pm
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    PETER D KETCHAM

    So if you have an AR-15 and an AR-15 pistol (who doesn't) and have a detached (not on pistol) brace, then the ATF considers you to have a SBR because you have all the parts to make an SBR. Question: By the same logic, if you have an AR-15 rifle and a AR-15 pistol, don't you have a SBR by the virtue of if you were to switch the two upper then you have a SBR and Rifle? Law of unintended consequences?

    January 31, 2023 9:51 am
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    meatlogmike

    you have a trump card you can play at any timethat all these articles "forget" to mention ill allow you to fill in the blank: __ not c_m_l_

    January 30, 2023 3:44 pm
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    Saucy McDuck

    As an avid gun owner with what will be seen as an awful point of view on this website, I am prepared to be ridiculed.

    The intent of the brace was to allow disabled veterans to shoot in the AR platform. For years, non-disabled people have taken advantage of that loophole to acquire what is clearly an sbr without going through the process.

    These should be allowed for disabled people who need them. Everyone else can submit paperwork just like I do for my supressors.

    The reason the ATF has been vague is because presidents change, and political winds change.

    If you are not disabled and want to have an AR pistol, fine - shoot it like I shoot my 9mm and 380ACP. Be a man, hold it in your hands away from your body, and shoot. If you are too big of a pussy and have to shoulder it like a rifle or brace it, then it ain't a pistol dumbass. You don't shoulder or brace a pistol. Get it registered.

    It's not the government's fault you can't shoot your pistol correctly. Hit the weight room.

    January 30, 2023 1:27 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      meatlogmike

      i can safely say i've never seen a man put a whole boot in his mouth while loudly proclaiming how masculine he is before

      January 30, 2023 3:35 pm
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      JohnSmith

      In America we the people should be able to have any weapons we want to have with any attachments we want to have. Any gun law is an infringement on our rights. These laws aren’t saving anyone, they’re getting innocent people killed.
      2nd amendment shall not be infringed
      It’s to prevent a tyrannical government from over stepping and disarming the people either all at once or incrementally. Why don’t you look up why it is you need to get a tax stamp for your silencers lol
      That just got thrown in a bill to make it look like the government was doing something when the mafia and moonshiners where using full auto to evade police. Every other county that still allows it’s people to have firearms you can just walk in and buy a suppressor as an attachment for your ear protection and those around you. Hollywood (fully owned by the cia) makes silencers appear scary to the general population that you can shoot in a crowded area and no one will even hear it. Lmao
      You act like your so high and mighty standing up for wounded vets but you forget what they were even wounded fighting for.

      January 30, 2023 10:33 pm
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      John carting

      Yeah you KNOW it’s not about that and it’s just another infringement in a long list

      January 31, 2023 12:06 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Lam

      Bootlicker

      February 1, 2023 11:15 pm
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      Andy Davis

      I'll agree with this to some extent. The "pistol brace" has been used from the beginning as a loophole. If you are shouldering a weapon with a brace, it's being used as a butt stock. I do understand that the law itself is arbitrary and nonsensical, but that's not the fault of the agency trying to enforce it.

      February 2, 2023 1:41 pm
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    Scotty P

    So just keep an extra 16" upper around and if they come knocking quickly swap??

    January 29, 2023 12:16 pm
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    Richard Gordy

    So I remove the brace from my Springfield Saint AR pistol, trash it, and it is a pistol, and legal? Or I file and pay the tax stamp to keep the brace?

    January 28, 2023 12:27 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Lam

      Cut off the lower rubber section of the brace, now you have a cheek rest while destroying the brace.

      February 1, 2023 11:21 pm
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    Carl Mucher

    The ATF is realizing that they are loosing money. Now they are trying to change the laws so they can get their $200 tax stamps. We give them power, but they are abusing that power to get money. Money is the root of all evil. ATF included.

    January 26, 2023 8:56 pm
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    DDearborn

    Hmmm

    First:
    This action by the government directly violates the 2nd Amendment. We know this because there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS, EXEMPTIONS OR LIMITATIONS TO CITIZENS RIGHTS TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS CONTAINED IN THE 2ND AMENDMENT OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE CONSTITUTION.

    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Second:
    Attempting to Retroactively criminalizing the purchase of pistol braces by the ATF exceeds their authority and directly violates Constitution Article I, Section 9, Clause 3.

    Third:
    On the other hand, if the courts finally choose to violate the Constitution and find that owners must give up them up then the government must pay to take them or waive any fees or charges associated with "registering" them (also an unconstitutional infringement) ... You know that pesky 5th amendment RIGHT...

    January 26, 2023 2:09 pm
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    rod

    what is the revenue the United States will loose when locking up 40 million Firearms owners that never broke any laws but were made into federal felons overnight by an unelected entity of a corrupt government?

    January 26, 2023 8:21 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Clyde Sansom

      If 40,000,000 free tax stamps are actually issued as “advertised” (there wont be nearly. That many,and any numbers the ATF clams,will be questionable) but the 40 million at $200 each adds to $8,000,000,000 so EIGHT BILLION DOLLARS,not to mention the added costs of ATF personnel,processing…(they’ll possibly use this as excuse to spend that amount or more to throw a high value contract to outsource this enormous amount of work,to a politically connected & friendly contractor in the tech field,likely from Silicone Valley,CA.
      Now lets take into account the big legal costs as well as Federal Court resources to engage in litigation that will result.
      All at taxpayers expense in th midst of America being in a financial crisis as a nation up it’s a taxpayer funded free fo all with the DC establishment…so hey,what’s another $8-$10 billion blown for no truly good reason,but to now have ATF illegally change stance from FULLY LEGAL AND APPROVED to “Do as We say,or else.)
      To LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS,
      Criminals don’t care…hence “criminal”
      And Ill not begin on the whole unethical,violating…and just plain wrong all this is.
      while I disagree…I will comply,not facing off with Federal Government…(I dearly value My freedom,gun rights..) which I will not lose over this.
      I’ll comply with the registration.’
      I do.Not.Like.This!
      But,this is what it is folks.
      Y’all stay safe,and take care.
      Thank You for reading My post.

      January 31, 2023 2:16 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Cal

        Feel free to hand over your fingerprints and pictures of your now illegal SBR to the AFT so that they can prosecute you as a fellon.

        February 2, 2023 7:46 pm
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    Cap

    Great article Jacki!

    January 26, 2023 8:10 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jacki Billings

      Thanks!!

      January 27, 2023 7:55 am
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    German L

    So how can you build a legal AR pistol? Do you just slap on one of those smooth buffer tubes with the foam and it's legal? Is there a ruling on optic / sights?

    January 25, 2023 7:05 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Hootie

    So, will you be able to own an AR / AK pistol and a brace separately (not combined together )? If not, then I would just destroy the brace.

    January 25, 2023 7:00 pm
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    Derek H

    How about putting all the energy and money spent cornering law abiding citizens and apply it to going after and punishing actual criminals. Instead of glorifying and going soft on criminals. Put the cart back behind the horse where it belongs. If they really wanted to stop mass shootings they could. Make the penalty horrifying as it should be.

    January 24, 2023 8:20 am
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    Ed larsen

    Weapons designed to kill lots of people quickly need to be regulated like automatic weapons. Fighting over the particulars and nuances is total BS. People that are familiar with firearms know the difference, if it’s designed to kill a lot of people quickly it should be regulated to reduce the body count of the criminals and crazies. You want a hunting or self defense firearm there are great firearms that don’t fall under the NFA. You want a firearms designed to kill lots of people quickly go through the NFA process, to prove you aren’t a criminal or a crazy. The rest is just people wanting to split hairs to get what they want, and as stupid as arguing you don’t want to get a permit to own a machine gun.

    January 23, 2023 12:24 pm
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      Fred

      So what your saying is a barrel less than 16" will kill more people?

      January 24, 2023 3:16 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        meatlogmike

        yeah because they have the shoulder thingy that goes up

        January 30, 2023 3:56 pm
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      Wboutdoors

      2a doesnt exist for hunting and home defense

      February 1, 2023 10:31 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Steve Schoner

    There are in fact SBR pistols on the C&R List that have hand no requirement to be listed prior to this new ruling. These pistols include the Mauser C96, the Canadian High Power 9mm with shoulder stocks, such stocks original German, Chinese, Canadian. There are others such pistols too on the list. Does this new revision affect these and other pistols on the C&R list, where such pistols ar over 50 years old?

    January 23, 2023 9:58 am
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    DC

    Going to update this article to mention anything about the 120 day timeline compared to the 88 day background check automatic rejection? Particularly in regards to the fact that at that point they have all of the person's information, photographic evidence that that they're in violation, and are able to charge/prosecute them despite it being a failure on the side of the ATF?

    January 22, 2023 7:31 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Bob Wriley

    So, I can have a complete lower receiver with a stock sitting around by itself, but I can't have a complete lower receiver with a brace sitting around by itself. Is that right, or am I missing something?

    January 21, 2023 5:46 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Chuck U Farley

      Sounds like that's the consensus, unless that pistol brace is attached to a 16in upper. I don't understand any of this. We're all criminals and felons now unless we remove and discard the braces that came with the pistols legally. What about grandfathering in those who bought these when it was legal to purchase and own.

      January 24, 2023 4:17 pm
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    Albert (Rich) Richardson

    Basically this is a gun ban. Approximately 40 million gun owners who have these weapons. If it take about 5 to ten minutes to go over one of the registration forms and let’s say they have an office of 15 people doing these forms for 8 hours a day five days a week. So, 720 forms a week….approximately….55,555 days to clear every form and they gave 120 days to register your weapon…..Ummm I know I’m just estimating, but it seems they are years behind being able to register all these weapons……it would take 213 years at that rate….with just 15 employees taking no breaks….yeah this is a gun ban. If you don’t get a stamp in the next 120 days and you registered you basically provided evidence for them to come get it because the majority of people won’t make the ban registrations date….

    January 21, 2023 12:16 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jace C

      @Rich yep you got it 100%. There is no way they can process even a small portion of the “needed” applications in time. This is entrapment and the info you provide them will likely result in in confiscation (since you are providing evidence of being an “illegal possessor”). 1st of your braced pistol, then your entire fireman’s collection when they slap you with a felony for being an “illegal possessor” of a SBR. The math itself tells you what you need to know about the ATF’s intent here

      January 21, 2023 12:07 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      David Grant

      That makes sense, except for one point. The atf, us Marshalls, secret service, cia, Homeland security officers, state police, sheriff's, local police, and all active duty mp's are not enough officers to enforce one by one a mandatory confiscation of 10-40 million privately owned guns.

      January 21, 2023 12:42 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Mike

      Just a fact

      February 2, 2023 1:04 pm
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    Rich Childs

    How does reclassifying legal weapons in the hands of responsible gun owners curb gun violence? It's just another attempt at gestapo control tactics by the government. They are scared that an armed populace will not tolerate their shenanigans much longer, and will do anything to disarm us. Absolutely ridiculous. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with public safety, and everything to do with control!

    January 20, 2023 5:28 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Ivan Krstanovich

      Did you see the headlines in the media? I seen this on MSN - Biden: “The Second Amendment is useless, the government will crush you!”

      January 21, 2023 11:11 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    brenda

    yes.........expos facto (after the fact)........... legal for 10+ years now illegal.........so when the speed limit was 55 do i get a ticket now for speeding 20 years ago????? same principle.......

    January 20, 2023 12:29 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    brenda

    yes.........expos facto (after the fact)........... legal for 10+ years now illegal.........so when the speed limit was 55 do i get a ticket now for speeding 20 years ago????? same principle.......

    January 20, 2023 12:27 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    brenda

    yes.........expos facto (after the fact)........... legal for 10+ years now illegal.........so when the speed limit was 55 do i get a ticket now for speeding 20 years ago????? same principle.......

    January 20, 2023 12:27 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    brenda

    yes.........expos facto (after the fact)........... legal for 10+ years now illegal.........so when the speed limit was 55 do i get a ticket now for speeding 20 years ago????? same principle.......

    January 20, 2023 12:27 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Ray Elmore

    Me, frankly, is simply just fed up with the nonsense they have been pushing over the years. It hasn't helped to make anyone safer. Enough is enough!

    January 19, 2023 11:02 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Chuck Cochran

    My reading of ATF's Final Rule, is you can't even remove the Brace and just have a bare or foam covered buffer tube. Pretty much states that if the barrel is less than 16" it's a SBR, period.
    Effectively, they've just turned every buffer tubed AR into SBR's. No buffer tube or point for stock attachment, it's a pistol. So PCC's that are buffer less, as long as there's no way to attach a brace or stock are still considered pistols.
    What of those who have built AR Pistols that have no serial numbers? It has to have a SN to be registered as a NFA item, and there are rules as to the size and depth of the SN. You can't just scratch #001 into the lower receiver. Those folks will have to convert the gun into a carbine or be in non-compliance. If you're not going to comply, I'd be real cautious of taking the gun to a range. Nosy neighbors might narc you out to ATF. Wouldn't surprise me to see ATF offer a bounty to reportees.
    This "Rule" will be challenged, as it should be, but that process will take years to go through the court system. Just look how long it took to get the Bump Stock Ban overturned, 4 - 5 years.
    Maybe we should be writing our Congress members? Especially now that there's some hard core conservatives on the House Oversight Committee. That might be faster than waiting for the courts, and Congress put the kibosh on ATF's earlier attempt.

    January 19, 2023 8:42 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      musicmax

      "PCC's that are buffer less, as long as there's no way to attach a brace or stock are still considered pistols."

      Does such a thing exist? BRN-180s and PSA JAKL are bufferless but can take a stock or brace. Would this have to be something bufferless that looks like a Shockwave or VRF14?

      January 22, 2023 2:52 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Chuck Cochran

        I'd heard that CMMG was working on one, but I haven't followed their progress. Currently, I think all on the market can take a brace. But I would think it's possible to mill off the attachment points, to prevent attachment.
        I don't have a PCC in my hands to look at, so my statement is speculative. ATF might just as easily shut that concept down too. Seems to me their end goal is making all AR/AK or similar pistols NFA items.

        January 22, 2023 3:11 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Jeff McClendon

        I have two 9mm pistol braces with no buffer tube, just a folding SB tactical brace and frame made by CAA like the Roni in the second photo in the article. These are not even AR type pistols which use high powered rifle rounds. They are just for helping disabled and older people similar to me effectively use braced 9mm handguns. I guess if I buy a 16" barrel for my Glock 19 I won't have to register it.........but I am clueless.

        January 23, 2023 6:19 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Cal

      Try living in Illinois, where you can't even register it with AFT. You pretty much have to either put a 16" barrel on it, destroy it or turn it in.

      February 2, 2023 8:00 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Chuck Cochran

        That stinks! I understand Colorado's Legislature is attempting similar Laws for the 2023 Session.

        February 2, 2023 8:59 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Cal

          The odd thing is around the definition of rifle. If the AFT has defined a pistol with a brace on it as a short barreled rifle AND Illinois follows the AFTs definition of an SBR, then anyone in IL with a PCC or pistol with an armbrace has just become a felon in the State of Illinois and with the Feds.

          February 2, 2023 10:24 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Keith P.

    Appears on its face to violate the principles recently decided by the US Supreme Court in the Bruen case. Looking forward to somebody suing the ATF to have this rule (and in fact, nearly all governmental infringements on gun ownership) thrown out.

    January 19, 2023 1:16 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Freedom seeds

    I suggest to everyone contact your local senators and oppose the measure immediately hate to brake it to you but if you do that point sheet they got no matter what you do if it has a brace of any kind I'm sorry it's an SBR according to them . No one purchased these with the intent on further government approval registering them under the NFA act or paying additional tax waiting in excess of a year to get approved or denied and seeing how things are going denied and not only getting it confiscated but everything else you own plus loose $200 don't pass go loose your rights and sit in jail or your life entirely bloodshed Monopoly style we the armed citizens need to stand up say NO and defy there demands many good folks are unaware of the pending doom and implications if enacted this will cause also it's bad for business because no one I know is going to purchase these anymore if we wanted to make an SBR we would of did a form 1 and submitted it to await further approval by the ATF and by the way I'm still waiting on approval for my suppressor I purchased over a year ago so what does that tell you. they can and probably will withold what you already rightfully and lawfully owned in the first place as long as they want the right thing to do is for lawmakers to edit the out dated NFA regulations and remove short barrel rifles and shotguns from the prohibited items list these are my thoughts I hope many of my like minded patriots will stand with me in the fight to regain rights stolen from us long before many of us were even born

    January 18, 2023 6:08 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Chuck Cochran

      I agree that should be one of our first steps we should collectively take. Unfortunately, my State's two Senators are Bennet and Hickenlooper. Both are Dems an always vote for the Antigun crowd. Their replies to letters I've sent are typical Dem hypocrisy. The "We support the 2nd, but this will make communities safer" Lie.
      My Rep is Boebert, and she is a pretty staunch defender of the 2nd, so I hope she'll push the cause in the House.
      I'll write Bennett and Hickenlooper, even if it's a wasted effort, I still want them on record.

      January 22, 2023 3:18 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Pro Gun

    So if my AR-pistol with the stabilizing brace had the can permanently attached to the barrel to extend the length to 16" would this now be classified a legal rifle?

    January 18, 2023 3:55 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Kevin Owens

      I've pondered this myself. Additionally, do you need to register the can if it is an integrated part of the firearm?

      January 19, 2023 6:50 am
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        Fred

        Yes you can permanently attach a "can" to make the barrel 16" or longer. And yes the "can" would need to be registered.

        January 24, 2023 3:30 pm
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    J Adler

    Appreciate the article. The ATF and legislators who go after firearms do so in fear, for control, or both. This is a symptom ‘imo’ of societal issues, firearms are a tool, and a human is the weapon. We need firearm education and societal reform for schools fostering environments which lead to mental health issues and lashing out at others to harm them. This is society, parents or both failing the child. The firearm is not to blame as a tool anymore than a shovel. I was raised to respect tools and how to use them and would have never used a firearm to resolve a childhood issue (or adult). We need proper education not ‘gun control’. US constitution clearly states no man shall be barred from the right to bear arms.

    January 18, 2023 8:58 am
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    Walker

    Does the BATFE have a record of everyone who owns an AR style pistol?

    January 17, 2023 10:54 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      JZ

      Doubtful but places like California DOJ does.

      January 18, 2023 12:46 am
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      Aaron

      Of course they do…every gun store has to keep records. Even if they don’t “keep” the reconds on file in government somewhere, they can get them anytime they want.

      February 2, 2023 8:13 pm
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    Billy Tidwell

    Why can’t you leave the law abiding citizens alone and actually do your job and arrest the criminals!
    Congress is the entity that makes the law , not some Fly by night bunch of Idiots!

    January 17, 2023 7:33 pm
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      James A Czech

      Exactly! When is Congress going to tell them that?

      January 18, 2023 7:22 am
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    Chuck Cochran

    There's approximately 6,000 ATF employees. The possibilities for telling them to F**k themselves are endless. We outnumber them Big Time.
    ATF is not authorized to Write Law. Only Congress has the authority to write Law. That's Constitution #101.
    It's time we quit tolerating Tyranny.

    January 17, 2023 6:26 pm
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    Phantom1973

    Well, I confess I have not read all the comments, so at the risk of being redundant -- this is not about anything physical or technical.
    The hallmark of the left, and anti-gunners (tyrants) is incrementalism.
    I scanned most of the almost 300 pages and most of it is tortuous logic to say the least.
    I am not a lawyer BUT here is the key phrase ' used for criminal activity.'
    Once you accept that as a criteria every weapon ever devised and everything from a knitting needle to a howitzer falls into the scope of banning.
    Remember these folks are not stupid, nor naive, but as cunning as a snake.
    They are also masters of perverting and changing language to suit their purposes.

    “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

    ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

    ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

    Make no mistake they (xir?? :( ) intend to be the 'masters' of all. Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking Glass

    Beware, FJB says no right is absolute, be very wary. Nothing has changed about human nature except the calendar year. :(

    January 17, 2023 10:00 am
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      Doug

      You’re not incorrect. But the political right also has its own tendency to “pervert and change language to suit their purposes”. As an example, remember when Kellyanne Conway introduced America to the new-speak phrase “alternative facts”? That was just a nicer, Orwellian phrase for “bald-faced lies”.

      The point being, we often (correctly) accuse the left of certain things that WE also do ourselves! The problem is, we never acknowledge or get upset when WE do it. We only get upset when the OTHER side does it. And that’s why, with a not insignificant percentage of the citizenry, we have our own credibility problems too. Except we’re never willing to admit that. And it only hurts ourselves.

      Ideally we would hold ourselves to a higher standard so that when issues like this ATF reframing of words comes up and we complain about it, more people would take us seriously. Until we’re willing to hold OURSELVES accountable for this type of behavior, people will continue to shrug their shoulders when we complain about the OTHER side doing the same thing.

      January 17, 2023 11:59 am
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        Phantom1973

        I think you missed the point. This is not about 'alternative facts.' It is about the concept of moral agency. An inanimate object's characteristics do not change because a sentient being uses it in an inappropriate manner.
        A pistol, rifle, brace, bump stock does not change just because it is used in an illegal manner anymore than a car changes because someone drives intoxicated and kills someone.
        Once you allow that the illegitimate use of an object, in this case apparently in just one crime, changes a whole class of inanimate objects you have lost completely.
        If you use a hammer to bash someone's skull in, it is still a hammer.
        Unless, of course, you decide to use the action (and pseudo logic) for another agenda.
        And lastly, the left plays by no rules at all, except the ones they make and change on the fly.
        Boxing by the rules in a street fight will get you 'right' but dead. Which is where the Republic is going way too quickly.

        January 17, 2023 5:43 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Barry

    So my AR-Pistol with just the foam padded buffer tube butt-end is going to be excluded from all of this, right? It's only attachable braces? Sorry, just want to be 100% clear on my end.

    January 17, 2023 7:53 am
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    Jon

    It's all BS. It will probably be struck down but in the mean time I have a few clone builds I want to SBR anyway so I'll do it for free now. Grace period is tax free and the Eforms has a special form1 to file.

    January 16, 2023 7:35 pm
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      Matt

      I don’t know I would do anything to give them info that’s all it’s about anyway so they can keep check on everyone.Hell I’ll just be happier now knowing that all these criminals will have a stamp on there’s.That’s how stupid this is why would legal good Americans havet to go threw this ,the ones that are bad 1,000,000 percent ant gona do dam thing there told on firearms,so what’s it hurt if someone did shoot from shoulders with a brace.I’d wait to see if it gets took down.this makes it a common use weapon just like 16’

      January 17, 2023 7:36 pm
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    Doug Larsen

    I don’t like this new ATF rule (obviously), but it doesn’t surprise me. Ever since these braces came out it was pretty obvious they were a “wink wink, nod nod” way of getting around the NFA, and I think most people know that (even if they don’t want to admit they know that). It was always a matter of time before they went “bye bye”.

    That said, two important points: 1.) the new ATF rule is HIGHLY ambiguous and it does NOT explicitly say “Everyone who owns one of these must now register it.” It says you must register ONLY IF it isn’t your intention to own it for disabled use. I will be old and disabled one day, so by my reading it is perfectly legal to keep without registering. 2.) even if it was illegal to keep, I wouldn’t cramp on it. Despite all the fear-mongering videos that have been released the last couple of days, ATF can’t arrest and jail millions of people even if they wanted to. They actually aren’t a large agency and they don’t have even 1% of the staff they’d need to actually enforce this law with any kind of teeth. So if you want to keep yours, just do it. Unless you’re yapping your mouth off, ain’t no one aside from yourself ever gonna know.

    January 16, 2023 6:53 pm
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      Matt

      That’s what I’m saying too my wife will never shoulder my ar pistol hell tuff get her hold hand gun right. Worse to worse in household that’s what I’ve taught her to flip safety hold it like Rambo lol

      January 17, 2023 7:39 pm
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    Rudy

    So if I bought my AR pistol 5 years ago with a brace already attached is it considered an sbr now

    January 16, 2023 5:32 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Fyrfytr998

      Yes.......but if you take it off. It goes back to being a pistol.

      Provided the pistol buffer tube is plain and around 6 to 6.5 inches installed.

      January 17, 2023 1:51 am
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    Boe Jiden

    I’d rather buy additional stocks and slap them on my weapons.

    January 16, 2023 4:28 pm
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    Roberts

    Its all about money and control . 40 million law abiding owners with a $200 tax stamp adds up . Everyone in the ATF gets a raise this year . And this is just a way for them to flex their muscles , they make the law , so just accept which laws they are allowing you at this time . Write your representatives , do not just do nothing and complain .

    January 16, 2023 3:45 pm
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    CamoJester

    Dose this apply to the Cz Scorpion ?

    January 16, 2023 3:33 pm
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      Bull127

      Yes

      January 17, 2023 4:32 am
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    Ken Pereira

    Hopefully now that the House is republican run, we can put some common sense back into the ATF.

    January 16, 2023 3:14 pm
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    Ken Pereira

    Much ado about nothing. They should be legal. What about grandfathering in that already own a pistol with a brace?

    January 16, 2023 3:12 pm
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    Woe is me

    Does this apply to PCC's as well?

    January 16, 2023 1:26 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Harrison

      Caliber doesn’t turn an AR-15 from a rifle to a pistol. Barrel length and overall length do.

      January 16, 2023 2:56 pm
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    Leonard M Ziegler

    The pistol brace is definitely an accessary and even necessary in some cases for people with disabilities. The ATF keeps changing its mind about the brace without any any sort of grandfathering it for people who purchased it legal thereby making law-abiding citizens criminals at their whim.
    Disgraceful behavior by the ATF. That seems to be the new American way under this administration.

    January 16, 2023 1:21 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    GoJo

    A "pistol" brace is CLEARLY an accessory and not a firearm, nor does it make the firearm more dangerous; quite the opposite, it makes the firearm more stable!

    January 16, 2023 12:25 pm
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    John Brock

    What about "Others" where would a Troy A4 fall in?

    January 16, 2023 12:03 pm
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    Boomer

    Piss on the ATF

    January 16, 2023 10:53 am
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    Bkwms

    Before you spend time and energy posting a reply here, please write your representative in Congress that the ATF cannot create criminal code, only Congress can do that, and this is government overreach and an infringement on our second amendment rights.

    January 16, 2023 10:53 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Thomas

    If I take the brace (a kak Shockwave) off and replace the foam cover on the recoil spring tube am I in pistol country or sbr-ville with a 10.5" barrel AR?

    January 16, 2023 10:31 am
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    Brad

    I don't want the ATF knowing what guns I own. This is just another way for law abiding people to be forced to register their firearms. I own an AR 15 pistol. I purchased the aforementioned support while it was legal. I do not plan on removing it or registering it with the ATF. I have HUGE medical bills because of cancer. Hopefully they will arrest me, put me in prison, and ALL my medical will be paid.

    January 16, 2023 10:13 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Joshua Rowinski

      You are already on a federal gun registry if you bought or transferred a gun through an FFL in the past 20 years.

      January 16, 2023 10:23 am
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    Matthew L Gilson

    Wasn't aware the "ATF" was capable of making laws or altering the Constitution. Must have missed that memo...

    January 16, 2023 10:12 am
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    Jamie

    There is no world where it's a good idea to have braces and AR pistols as an NFA item. Period. Leave us alone.

    January 16, 2023 9:29 am
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    Steve W Waltermire

    Abuse of Chevron Deference.

    January 16, 2023 8:52 am
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    Joe Bob

    This Country feels less and less like America every year. Time to move off the grid

    January 16, 2023 6:53 am
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    Troutlaw

    As soon as this hits the courts, it will be struck down. Just like bumpstocks. ATF does NOT have the power to create or change laws. Now if I could remember what lake I was on when my AR pistols fell out of the boat, I would be in good shape.

    January 16, 2023 6:28 am
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    AT3

    A bit confused here.
    Since when did BAFTE become part of the legislative branch??

    January 16, 2023 5:37 am
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    DonaldR

    The ATF allowed it so once millions of these items sold legally they cannot change the rules just arbitrarily. Keep calling your congressman or congresswoman to stop ATF overreach.

    January 16, 2023 4:53 am
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    Joshua Rowinski

    You got a critical piece of information totally wrong in your explanation. If you register your braced pistol with the ATF within the 120 day grace period you will not have to pay the $200 tax stamp.

    January 16, 2023 4:02 am
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      Craig Heartwell

      Why didn't this article say how/where to register? What eForm can I use for that?

      January 16, 2023 6:12 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Scott H

        eForm1

        January 16, 2023 7:53 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Joshua Rowinski

        It is an E-form 1 you will need to make an account on the ATF e-form website. Then you complete the form online and send in your fingerprints.

        January 16, 2023 10:25 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      JJ

      But when does the grace period start? Don't you have to own the "pistol" prior to the start of the grace period?

      January 16, 2023 7:17 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Scott H

        Yes and it starts when it is published in the register, they're saying as early as the today or tomorrow being it's a federal holiday today

        January 16, 2023 7:55 am
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      Chris Sewell

      I caught that too. They are waiving the $200.00 tax stamp, within the 120 days.
      I wonder...Is that good on Supressors too?

      January 16, 2023 8:00 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Joshua Rowinski

        No, it is not for suppressors also.

        January 16, 2023 10:25 am
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      Oebug

      And you can never transport it across State lines without written approval each time. And you cannot sell or transfer to anyone legally without the person going through the background check, fingerprinting etc that you had too first. It’s a lot more than paying or not having to pay 200 dollars. You are severely restricted by registering. I’d personally put a 16 inch barrel on it or remove brace. I think it’s wrong though to mandate destroying the brace in any manner. What if you have other rifles it can be used on? You paid for the brace and it could still be legally used.

      January 16, 2023 7:36 pm
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        Joshua Rowinski

        If you want to travel with an SBR you do need to fill out a form and get approval but it is valid for 1 entire year. You don't need to fill one out each time you travel within that year with that SBR. Also, haven't you ever heard of swapping out the upper if you want to travel? You can just put a 16 inch upper on you SBR lower and there is no need to get approval to travel with it. Really isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

        January 16, 2023 9:31 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Oebug

          I did not know it was valid for the entire year. Thanks for that info.
          As far as swapping out barrels, some braced pistols such as the UZI Pro do not have 16 inch barrels. At least from UZI.
          Again, that is good information you provided.

          January 16, 2023 9:51 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        monster

        You also paid for that short barrel.

        January 18, 2023 2:29 pm
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    Matt

    I think all atf involved in these fraudulent games should be looked at and charge for coming up with lies in a way to guarantee there victory in doing this that’s why they took so long to make sure no pistol is a pistol sorry bastards.

    January 16, 2023 3:01 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Dennis Baillie

    Absolutely absurd! Why did they decide it was OK to change the rules after manufacturers (with ATF approval) Spent possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars developing and producing a (legal) product, consumers spent hundreds to thousands purchasing a (legal) product, to then be told F.U. we changed our mind. These people have way too much power for a bureaucracy that doesn't have to answer to the voters.
    If I can't use it (no SBR's allowed in my state) ATF should be required to pay back to me every cent I spent on it, & then some for pain and suffering. Since that's not likely, I'll take the damn brace off and try to sell the pistol.

    January 16, 2023 12:37 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Greg

      Tax payers would have to pay you.
      The ATF has no money.
      We the taxpayers have to donate money to the NRA etc and to fight this mandate ( it is not a law) and the taxpayers give the government money to fund the ATF to try and force these illegal mandates on us.
      WE NEED SMALLER GOVERNMENT!

      January 17, 2023 11:46 am
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    Robert

    What an absolute pile of horsesheet,,That this government agency not even elected by the people has the power to rewrite definitions there by rewriting the laws affecting all citizens. What’s worse is how they’re allowed to just keep changing their mind back-and-forth. This ATF should be abolished they’re an abomination and clearly violation of the Constitution and Second Amendment.. I’m tired of just standing by as they tramp all rights. This time it’s pistol braces what’s it gonna be next they change the definition of. This government loves changing the definitions to suit their needs. Even the word vaccine has a new meaning under these liberal morons. These liberals are a danger to our republic

    January 16, 2023 12:10 am
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    Grand pa Chief

    Does this really surprise any one ? We are dealing with a government entity that is as ignorant as to believe unk. joe can store supposed intel in cardboard box’s next to an old car ! Would you store your guns this way? Really - aw come on man this is so much smoke my eyes hurt ! then the A.T.F. Can’t go after the number one son ,( who listed his address at daddy home for some time ! Then has certain members of commy party over for friendly gatherings to read papers ? ) same son who broke hand gun laws and lied on an application and they are worried about pistol braces ? Come on man ! ( quote from uncle joe hisself). ATF can’t make laws any more than joe can ?! Ok citizens time to stand up and say no - stand on on your hind legs and say something - don’t be A sheeple and stay on all fours ! What’s the old saying about if God not wanting you to be Sheared he wouldn’t have made you sheep ! I’m no sheep and have the guns to prove it ! Any way here we go again ! And finish the border wall - it’s all paid for -lots and lots of panels laying on the ground in Casa Grande Arizona! Workers were paid for some period of time ;after the election of joe and his gang of 4 ! Oh yes and I agree with krez in other comments !

    January 16, 2023 12:07 am
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    Dead Cat

    Death to tyrants

    January 16, 2023 12:01 am
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    Jacob McCandles

    This is so pathetic!!!! This has nothing to do with stopping crime or protecting the citizens!!!! This is just another small step in the Gun Control mind set toward getting rid of the Second Amendment!!!! It is an outright attack on the law abiding citizen to put them in the felony criminal category!!!!

    “So, you want to keep that $1450.00 AR-15 Pistol you bought last year? Great, pay us $200 and fill out our application. Now that we know where to pick it up, we will raid your house in 124 days or so, to collect that newly categorized SBR and to arrest you and put you in prison!!! If you’d like to avoid all the hassle, all you need to do is turn your firearm in to us and sign the release of it to us and you can have a nice day”!!!

    Oh, and now that we know you’re the type to buy illegal firearms, we will raid your home with a search warrant for any other firearms you might have!!! Thank you for telling us who you are and where you live on the forms you filled out!!!

    January 15, 2023 11:05 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Manning

      Since when does the ATF have law making authority?
      All you have to do is read the appeal on bumpstocks .
      This gun grab is orchestrated by the Biden crime syndicate and everyone knows it .
      Every gun owner needs to melt the phone lines to their congressman to stop the overreach of a leftist run agency . Require the ATF to furnish statistics on just how many crimes have been committed with braced pistols .
      Leave the law abiding citizens alone , there are plenty of criminals to focus on .

      January 16, 2023 3:25 am
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    Philip more

    We the people are the ones to protect our country from invading military forces from other countries, you will not see any ATF standing next to a American patriot ready to defend but them hiding behind a desk thinking that the political figures will protect them ,to which they will be hiding behind theirs

    January 15, 2023 10:40 pm
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    Rando Rednek

    Screw em

    January 15, 2023 10:40 pm
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    Larry

    Honestly, what I don't really understand is just HOW would or could they ENFORCE this? I mean, are they going to start kicking in doors of whoever the online sellers reveal bought a pistol brace from them?

    I'd guess the NSA already dug that data out of their computers.

    I was a couple weeks away from buying an AR pistol. We all know this is just the start. And since when can an Agency create a new law? I thought Congress did that.

    January 15, 2023 10:32 pm
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      Doug Larsen

      That’s the thing…despite all the fear-mongering videos that have gone up in the last 48 hours (“ATF is going to round up millions of people!”), fact is they can’t practically do anything but hope people will comply. They aren’t going to start arresting millions (or even thousands) of ‘average dudes’ simply because those guys didn’t register their braced pistols. The politics around that wouldn’t fly for even a second. Not to mention, there literally aren’t enough ATF or other law enforcements officers to do that, nor is there enough prison space to put those people. Yes this new ATF rule is bad, but nobody needs to worry that someone is going to kick their door in any day now. Ain’t gonna happen.

      January 16, 2023 7:10 pm
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        Larry

        Thanks for your thoughts, Doug. Let's hope so. I think Obama, the current actual president, would love nothing better than to be able to find some justification for Martial Law. You know what they can legally do to us then.

        January 16, 2023 10:08 pm
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        Adam

        True, but even if you have one locked in your gun safe and you have a house fire, the police get called for your teenage kids having a party while you're away, your shooting it at your buddies house and the neighbor calls the police...$20,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison is a lot to risk. There are plenty of DAs in this country that would love to prosecute you for illegal weapon possession.

        January 20, 2023 7:14 pm
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    Andrew Budek-Schmeisser

    The rule won't stand, as it violates the concept of lenity, tenderness to the accused, long a part of common and Federal law

    January 15, 2023 10:14 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Larry

      Maybe the GOP will finally for once do something FOR Patriots.

      January 15, 2023 10:33 pm
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        Barry

        Could possibly just be another move by Democrats to have the Republicans stand up against this. Then they can politicize it in the next election stating that "Republicans want weapons of war to be untracked so they can kill your kids".

        January 17, 2023 12:14 pm
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    Krez

    I think the spiteful morons at the ATF watch way too many Spy and Hit-man movies, and are just nit picking every screw, spring and accessory that has been or could be made for a firearm and any new firearms ideas or inventions. They do it for a couple reasons, 1: I think they are jealous that they don't have all the cool firearms "We The People" do. 2: They want total control, and will do anything to make it hard as hell for law abiding citizens to have, use and keep any kind of firearms they want. 3: The more tricky rules and laws they throw at us, the more fines and supposed illegal firearms they collect. Hell, they already hit us with a $200 tax stamp, for something that we all should have for hearing safety, Cans for every Caliber and Firearm we have. They should let everyone own Thompson S.M.Gs, B.A,Rs and Mini Gatling Guns with 6k rounds per minute firing capability. As far as I am concerned, the ATF is just another crooked gov. office, hell bent to stop us from defending ourselves and our country if needed, which it needs at the southern border badly....Or having some fun shooting at the range or out in the woods. That's my opinion

    January 15, 2023 10:13 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Greg

      I don’t think the rank and file of the ATF had anything to do with this mandate.
      I think it came from the man at the top. (Obiden)
      Their getting rid of Biden now and Michele is going to run in 2024.

      January 17, 2023 11:58 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Larry

    Can a guy just take the brace off and use the 11" bbl upper on a multi cal or dedicated pistol lower like they would have otherwise?

    January 15, 2023 10:11 pm
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    Nate

    Because so many people have bought ar pistols, I actually think the ATF is risking to have the SBR listed on the NFA being removed - which I commented on the rule when it was being proposed.

    January 15, 2023 10:06 pm
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    Don G

    Things in the AR world were just fine....UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT (ATF) started 'THINKING'. What a bag of pus this is, just more Gov't overreach and and invasion into the lives of law abiding citizens.

    January 15, 2023 9:58 pm
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    Ronald C Harbinson

    Ronald. It's time for them to be defended and run out of America.

    January 15, 2023 9:49 pm
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    Tank

    So, no $hit, I just realized one of "someone's" weapons may actually be an SBR. I should probably look into that.

    January 15, 2023 9:25 pm
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    Johnnie Walker

    This entire witch hunt reeks of typical government smoke and mirror tactics,side stepping and ignoring criticality needed attention to the true enemies of our nation. As usual they attack soft targets of no risk but big MSM notoriety,law abiding citizens. I’m sure they have studies and charts to explain just how much safer the world will be after this takes one more bite of our ever shrinking constitutional rights. It seems it’s not only the FBI that was replaced,agencys that once were revered and trusted are quickly becoming a shadow of what they once represented. I can only wonder what they will declare a national threat next. Sorry for the rant. I just can’t believe what’s happened in my lifetime to my home and I see no end to it.

    January 15, 2023 9:21 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Greg A.

    Is it the gun or the gun owner needing a stamp, i.e. if you have multiple AR pistols is a stamp required for each?

    January 15, 2023 9:12 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      AJ S.

      You need one for each AR lower. You have to have background check, pay the $200 tax and wait for them to actually send it each time.

      January 15, 2023 10:06 pm
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      Jim M

      Requires a $200 tax stamp for EACH NFA item!

      January 15, 2023 10:24 pm
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        Greg A.

        Thanks. I thought so, but hoped it was otherwise.

        January 15, 2023 11:41 pm
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          Seth Strasburg

          $200 is waived for braces during the 120 days.

          January 16, 2023 5:30 am
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    Billy D

    It’s just another way for the Government to harass legal gun owners because they know the intended target (criminals) will not follow any regulations. If the ATF wants to drop by my place that’s fine. 30 year street cop here.

    January 15, 2023 9:05 pm
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    Bemused Berserker

    What we should do and what we will do are two completely different things.
    What we will do is file endless lawsuits that will drag on for years in the hope that SCOTUS will stay 2nd Amendment friendly by the time the case gets there.
    We should have done was band together 80+ years ago and shot the F*ckers responsible for this Tyranny.
    My AR Pistol can't be registered, because it's a build, therefore no serial number. So I can't register it even if I wanted too.
    I guess I'll take it apart until I can get a longer barrel and the parts to make it legal to own, but I am PISSED, and I think it's high time we tell McSniffy Schitz-His-Pants and his gun grabbing ATF to F*ck themselves.
    Pardon my language, I'm a salty old fart that the government has schit on for far too long.

    January 15, 2023 9:00 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Doug Larsen

      If your firearm doesn’t have a serial number to begin with (which is what you just claimed) then a pistol brace is the least of your worries. It’s been illegal for a long time to have a firearm with no serial number.

      January 16, 2023 7:22 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Greg

        I think if you build with and 80% lower it does not have a serial number.

        January 17, 2023 12:03 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        monster

        That's BS! Depends on where you live. Millions of folks own ARs that were self-built and don't have serial numbers.

        January 18, 2023 2:32 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Freedom seeds

        That's a lie you've been told truth is it exceptionally legal to build from the safety of your home for personal use without such sorry to bust your bubble

        January 18, 2023 10:35 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Jace C

        @doug I’m sorry, but you are wrong. If a firearm is built by an individual it’s not going to have a serial number if it was built from a partly finished receiver or FCG. That’s been perfectly legal in the US of A since before we’re a Constitutional Republic. There are literally thousands of hand built Sig Sauers, AR’s and 1911’s out there that are not serialized. There are recent state laws (like ours in WA state) that now require all receivers (including partially complete) to be serialized. It’s only been since 1968 that manufacturers have been required to serialize gun built for commercially sold firearms. Homebuilt firearms for personal use have not been required to have serial numbers except in a few states, and that only in recent history.

        January 20, 2023 1:21 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Mikial

    First, the ATF should be disbanded. They have no Constitutional legal authority to essentially make laws. But they do it anyway.

    Second, part of this whole mess happened because every bozo with a YouTube channel posted videos of themselves using their brace as a stock.

    January 15, 2023 8:58 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Bill

    I'll start by echoing all those who pointed out that *of course* a braced pistol is the same as an SBR. That was the beauty of it!

    You had what amounted to an SBR, without having to go through all the ATF BS, pay that exorbitant $200 fee, and put yourself on their list.

    And yes, the NFA rules are a violation of our Constitutional rights, and that they clearly infringe on our right to keep and bear arms. What else is new?

    The other advantage of the braced A.R. pistol in the state I live in, is that my concealed carry permit allows me to carry it loaded in my vehicle; whereas I can't carry a loaded rifle of any sort.

    Here's a question I haven't seen brought up: certainly there are going to be pro-gun groups taking this to court; and there's at least the possibility that a higher Court will rule it unconstitutional.

    But it seems doubtful that that will happen within the next 120 days.

    Will the Courts put a halt to the implimentation of the law until the question of its constitutionality is finally decided?

    Or will the law go into affect and the ATF proceed to enforce it, until the Courts rule otherwise?

    January 15, 2023 8:34 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    ARron

    Good article up to the Youtube video of the two guys trying to work through the 4999. As soon as I saw them measuring OAL with the muzzle device attached nad no sign of it being welded on, I figured out if they can't even read the basic instructions, the vid was a waste of time.

    January 15, 2023 8:33 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Brad Balch

    What about just a foam cheek rest? Legal?

    January 15, 2023 8:31 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      MJ

      As long as the foam isn’t wrapped over a pistol brace, you should be good.

      January 15, 2023 9:11 pm
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    Vin Diesel

    Good article. Keep in mind that ATF can deny your form 1 application. Then what?

    January 15, 2023 8:25 pm
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    patrick diamond

    Very well written article. I just hope and pray for our future generations. The leaders we have today are certainly screwing things up. Wouldn't it be something if there was a way that they couldn't lie and had to always tell the truth. Again, the little guy has to pay, or give it up.

    January 15, 2023 8:23 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Jim Moran

    How about removing the brace and installing a pistol buffer tube that has the padded round handle on the end? This essentially is not a stock/brace, nor designed to be shouldered? For those of us in Comrade Newsomes Kalifornia, short barreled rifles are illegal, so this new law simply doesn’t allow for the tax stamp option…..

    January 15, 2023 8:18 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Mark Krebs

      That would make it a legal AR pistol

      January 15, 2023 8:56 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Jim Moran

        Thank you, that’s what I thought based on that which I’ve read about the new law. At least an option for us Californians.

        January 15, 2023 9:41 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          JustSaying

          Actually, according to the ATF ruling, if a buffer tube or other similar device extends beyond the rear of the pistol, the pistol is now considered an SBR. Does not matter to the atf if the tube is required for the proper functioning or operation of the pistol. The atf document goes into great detail with diagrams, charts and pictures to explain the difference in classification of a pistol vs. sbr. For example, an AR-15 style pistol is in essence an sbr, but a CZ Scorpion is not (provided the brace is removed and/or no forearm hand stop, and/or optic with an eye relief similar to a rifle scope and/or flip-up and/or back up sights, if any of those items are present, its an SBR.)

          January 15, 2023 10:16 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Mark Krebs

          I think that all you have to do to be legal is take the brace off the tube. And then melt the brace.

          It doesn't say you have to get rid of the 6 position buffer tube.

          January 15, 2023 11:49 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Jace C

            You cannot have the means of a “rearward attachment”. They are big on “intent”. If you have a 6-position buffer tube and a stock sitting nearby you have intent/means to create a SBR.

            January 20, 2023 1:24 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Jace C

            I would recommend everyone to view video with GOA attorney on YouTube posted by Guns & Gadgets at ShotShow yesterday. Great explanation of how this grace period by the ATF is entrapment. How can they possibly process an additional 10,000,000 (low end estimate btw) applications in 120 days, by ppl that are already by definition “illegal possessors”. Short answer- they can’t, but they would really appreciate all your info so that they have evidence (provided by you) that you are an illegal possessor and they can visit you at their leisure. ATF individual admits this is what they intend to GOA attorney.

            January 20, 2023 1:36 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          VA_is_stealth_CA

          In Cali you can’t have a pistol with the magazine forward of the grip. So rifle-pistols are already illegal

          January 16, 2023 1:42 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      DonaldR

      This question and the replies still indicate confusion on how to handle this. So we need more clarification as it sounds like removing the brace off an AR style pistol will not be sufficient.

      January 16, 2023 5:01 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Ethan

    A very well written breakdown article. I'm absolutely disappointed but at least I'm informed. *le sigh*

    January 15, 2023 8:15 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Bill

    According to Ammoland's 'Shooting Sports News', the ATF will not be charging people the $200 stamp tax fee when they register their braced pistols as SBRs:

    "Although the ATF states a 120-day grace period to register a pistol as an SBR, the ATF only promises not to enforce NFA rules on these devices for 60 days. The ATF will give a tax forbearance for the $200 tax stamp fee. A tax forbearance means that the ATF will not collect the $200 tax fee, although, by the law, you still owe the fee; it just will not be collected. The rule is set up the way it is because the ATF cannot waive a tax."

    January 15, 2023 8:03 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Christopher Shaw

      Also, if you don’t register your new sbr brace weapon, you will not be able to sell it because you are illegally owning and sbr that is not registered.

      January 15, 2023 8:30 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Bill

        Yep.

        It seems to me that the only completely good outcome would be if the Courts were to rule that the ATF's actions were unconstitutional. And I have no idea how likely or unlikely that is.

        Worst case, I'll probably go ahead and register my braced pistols as SBRs, then put collapsible A.R. stocks on them.

        I don't particularly like it, but as you point out, the alternative is to own guns which I have to keep hidden, and can never legally transfer.

        January 15, 2023 8:46 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Countless

          Or just stay a criminal and do it illegally. Which end result - why continue to be a law abiding citizen if criminals have more freedoms?

          January 15, 2023 9:01 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Bill

            I hear you. I've broken a few laws in my time.

            I'm fortunate to live in west Colorado: a place where the local law-enforcement is very pro gun. When our state legislature recently passed a red flag law, the sheriffs of several dozen counties in the western part of the state--- including the one I live in--- announced that they wouldn't be enforcing it.

            So I'm not all that worried about being on ATF's list after I register my braced pistols as SBRs.

            If the ATF were to come prowling around this neck of the woods, looking to confiscate people's weapons, I expect the local law-enforcement would be on the side of the citizens.

            So looking at the pros and cons, it strikes me as a better choice to be able to own these guns legally, and sell them or transfer them if I want to.

            Of course, YMMV

            January 15, 2023 9:12 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Coubtless

            It’s more of a back door gun registry which is ironically illegal for them.

            What this tells them is that they name an accessory and make it required to register the firearm it’s attached to to “remain legal”


            But realistically speaking the atf don’t confiscate - they burn down your house or shoot your dog

            January 15, 2023 9:33 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Kelly Craig

    I challenged any attorney claiming otherwise to agree to a bond guaranteeing his/her opinion is correct:

    The AFT is not God, or even a god.

    The ATF does not have authority over matters in one or more of the several, united states and that are ALREADy outside of INTERstate commerce.

    The ATF cannot add to or take from the law, it can only execute it.

    CONgress, as FJB claimed during the election campaigns, does not have authority to create any law it wants and impose it on the states. This fact has been made clear over and over again. Regarding gun free zones, U.S. v LOPEZ (1995), when the U.S. Supreme Court declared schools have nothing to do with interstate commerce.

    The damn cat needs to be put put back in the box.

    January 15, 2023 8:02 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Atown

    This article says you have to pay $200, but isn't the fee waived for the next 120 days?

    January 15, 2023 8:02 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jacki Billings

      We just updated it! Thanks for the heads up!

      January 16, 2023 7:19 pm
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    D.A. Hancock

    If you live in the State of Montana which has the most progun laws in the US, this is of no concern to you. Montana passed HB 258 that became law on Jan. 1st 2021. The basic summation is that any law, rule, regulation or Judical decisions banning firearms, firearm accessories, ammo, etc. after Jan. 1st 2021 the State and Citizens of Montana will not abide by. Futhermore ther can be no Federal Law Enforcement of such bans.

    January 15, 2023 7:31 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Steve

      Lmfao.

      January 15, 2023 8:02 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        D. A. Hancock

        We're the ones laughing. While other's continue to participate in stupid, we refuse to. Difference between Free Men & Slaves.

        January 18, 2023 9:38 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Christopher Howard

    Is the CAA attachment to my glock considered a SBR?

    January 15, 2023 6:59 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Bull127

      Yes

      January 17, 2023 4:52 am
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    Pistola

    Snot nosed, government bureaucrats at the BATFE are not legislators. No power to write law has been given to them by Congress. Until there's "Congressman" or "Senator" after their names, and they debate in the open and hold public hearings, and then vote, they are merely tyrants and dictators who deserve no respect or regard from American Citizens.

    January 15, 2023 6:50 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    William

    Restrictions, bans, fees and or fines all sound like infringements to my aging ears.

    January 15, 2023 5:44 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Ruud de Groot

    youtu.be/lsE0naVApPU

    January 15, 2023 3:42 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    VA_is_stealth_CA

    Silver lining: Aside from any “other” reasons not to register an SBR (which are as numerous as commentators on this post), IF you were eventually planning on converting to an SBR for stock options, vertical foregrips, etc then it seems you have 120 days to do so without paying the $200 fee

    January 15, 2023 1:29 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Goat

      My thoughts exactly..I planned on making the four firearms I own with braces into SBR's anyway.. It's saving me money ultimately. But I understand why many are upset.

      January 16, 2023 2:34 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    24and7

    MAKE THE ATF POUND SAND!...Do not send them any voluntary information for their witch hunt...That is self incrimination...They are not legislators...They will owe millions in compensation to Bump stock owners, pretty soon, for trying to be lawmakers (instead of law enforcers)...Besides everything bought legally was purchased under legal means and must be grandfathered...Remember Brady Laws...All legally purchased mags before the law were grandfathered in and legal for all to own...A date of manufacture or LE rollmark was required on all mags made after the date of Brady...

    January 15, 2023 10:02 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    LTZ

    I was reading the ruling and it talks about a 200 Make Fee and a 200 Transfer Fee. It only mentions forebearing the Make Fee. For clarity, are both Fees waived during the initial 120 day period?

    January 15, 2023 8:09 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Kevin Holter

    Can anyone answer this nonsense? “The rule goes into effect on the date of publication in the Federal Register. The rule allows for a 120-day period for manufacturers, dealers, and individuals to register tax-free any existing NFA short-barreled rifles covered by the rule. Other options including removing the stabilizing brace to return the firearm to a pistol or surrendering covered short-barreled rifles to ATF. Nothing in this rule bans stabilizing braces or the use of stabilizing braces on pistols.”

    So I see two glaring items that stand out; you can register “tax-free” ? Or you can remove the brace returning it to a pistol but yet “nothing in this ruling bans stabilizing braces or the use of stabilizing braces on pistols.”

    January 14, 2023 7:32 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Andrew

      It doesn’t ban the use, it restricts the use of stabilising braces.

      January 14, 2023 10:37 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Chris

    Thank you for the info.
    I think that IF they must change the law which I disagree with. what's already done should stay in place (grandfathered)
    Don't change the rules after the game has started. People have aquired these legally at that time.

    January 14, 2023 1:11 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Greg

    Pistol braces are a loophole to SBR registration and is rightfully being closed. If you attach a device to the back of a pistol that makes it shoulderable, you have created an SBR by definition laid out in the NFA of 1934. The government is not banning these or gun-grabbing, they are just requiring registration as in accordance to already established law. You are lying to yourself if you dont beleive that AR pistols like the Q Honeybadger were designed to be shouldered and use the "pistol brace" verbiage to get get around registration.

    January 14, 2023 11:20 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Will

      SBRs shouldn't be regulated in the first place. It's complete nonsense, like the rest of the NFA. We have a government that refuses to enforce the laws already on the books, allowing crime to skyrocket, but wants to continue inching toward registration and confiscation for law abiding citizens. If you support that, fuck you.

      January 14, 2023 2:40 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Andrew J Sessions

      The problem is that they have clearly stated that it was ok in the past. That’s 100% their fault, if they had said they were SBRs out the gate that’s one thing, but to change a rule for something that is owned by 40 million Americans is criminal. Those braces cost $100. The ATF ought to pay for them all.

      January 14, 2023 9:14 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Cash

      Money. $200 x40m. We are breaking these phukkers. They need a YOOJ infusion of cash. Psychological mayhem to get a check FROM YOU.

      January 15, 2023 6:50 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Countless

      Per ATF website on FAQ “ATF has a national gun registry. False: ATF is strictly prohibited by law from having a national gun registry”

      Remind us then why is being pushed to be registered then?

      January 15, 2023 8:00 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      M

      Fuck you fed boi. Come and get them!

      January 15, 2023 8:12 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Brandon

      What’s your favorite flavor of boot polish?

      January 15, 2023 12:14 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Rob

      I live in Ct and have a CT Other AR 15 which the ATF said was legal because it was not a pistol because of barrel length and a was not a rifle because it hat a brace. Now where does this leave millions like me? The ATF is overstepping. They can't make law. By making laws by breaking laws just who is the fng criminal here? They keep changing rules on a whim. Screw them. This will be overturned.

      January 15, 2023 6:23 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jim

      that might be true but under the BRUEN standard I doubt the 1934 NFA can stand judicial review. The law was never sound constitutionally and with the new Supreme court standard, it may well be struck down. I understand the case that was on hold in Texas will become active shortly -perhaps Tuesday. I read this 300 page document, I was a DOJ litigator for about 24 years-I cannot make sense of what is covered by the dubiously constitutional NFA and what is not.

      January 15, 2023 8:27 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Billy D

      Hello ATF agent trolling the comment section.

      January 15, 2023 9:19 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Suck This Biden

    Except now it's different again. The ATF got rid of the points worksheet and pretty much said "all braces are banned" even though they did some gaslighting by saying it won't affect disabled people using a brace properly (which is a lie because if you read all 297 pages of this nonsense the only way out is registration, destruction, or surrendering).

    With the bump stock ban being reversed because the courts decided the ATF doesn't have the authority to change law and violate the Constitution, I don't see how they think they have the authority to do this action which affects millions of more people and is much more egregious.

    Quite simply, this is just a way for the ATF to incrementally ban firearms and put you on a short list for future confiscation. Fuck them! Fuck them up their stupid little communist asses! Do not fall for their fuckery.

    January 14, 2023 1:35 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Poway Patriot

      Well Said!

      January 15, 2023 1:20 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    BenV

    For actual disabled firearm owners could this regulation be argued to be illegal under the American with Disabilities Act?

    January 13, 2023 5:28 pm
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    Johnny Dangerously

    Just throwing this out there, could you put a pistol brace on a sb belt fed?

    December 9, 2022 3:46 pm
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    Sunny Singh

    so where do we stand as of Oct 2022? like to understand this rule before making the purchase. A pistol with 9.5" barrel and SBA3 brace, would it be considered pistol or SBRs?

    October 25, 2022 11:16 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    TRENT WATSON

    MASS non compliance
    It worked with Prohibition it will work with this
    We all need to stand as brothers and ignore this bullshit for what it is. It is an unconstitutional power grab by a tyrannical government that has turned against its own law abiding citizens

    September 18, 2022 12:47 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Aaron

    Just asking for a friend, what if a AR chambered in 9mm has a 8" barrel, bare carbine buffer tube(no brace or buttstock) & no foregrip(no angled foregrip or vertical foregrip, just bare handguard) is made. Will it fall under the SBR Tax Stamp Rule? Will it have to be registered the same as a AR with a Pistol Brace(if the new rule goes into effect in 12/2022)? Is there a way to own a shorter than 16" barreled AR, without ATF registration, legally?

    September 13, 2022 11:40 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Greg J

      The receiver needs to be stamped "pistol." If it is not, you have a SBR.

      January 14, 2023 11:22 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Aaron

        All Aero Precision Lower Receivers are stamped "Cal Multi" with nothing to indicate Rifle, SBR or Pistol. It is also registered as NOT Rifle or Pistol, but as "Other", as it was legally purchased as a "Stripped Receiver". I know of less than 3 Stripped Receivers, that are stamped with "Pistol" anywhere on them. As I am not the manufacturer of this Lower Receiver, I do not know if stamping it myself with the word: "Pistol" will have any legal binding or is even worth anything. Thank you for your response Greg J, I just don't think that your short answer is the full story, as there seems to be so much still unfolding with what the ATF will actually do in the end or if it legally binding?

        January 14, 2023 12:34 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Greg

          Aero makes a receiver stamped "Model Pistol" above the multi-caliber stamp.

          January 14, 2023 12:48 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Aaron

            My bad, you are totally correct... for Aero Precision AR-15 Lowers. For the 9mm/40 cal lowers, known as the EPC, as of today, they still only make none stamped as "Model Pistol". My fault, I didn't give enough information of the actual topic that I was asking for. Also regardless of the "Stamping" of "Pistol", if you assemble the firearm(with a barrel length of less than 16") with a vertical foregrip or buttstock(& a few other components) it will be classified as a SBR. It is perfectly fine to assemble a Rifle with a barrel length of 16" or greater with a Lower Receiver stamped "Model Pistol" (you just cannot change it to a barrel with less than 16" in the future). There seems to be much more going on with ATF's rules regarding what is a pistol or SBR.

            January 14, 2023 7:09 pm
          • Commenter Avatar
            Dustin Doyle

            After a ruling over ten years ago firearms that start life as a pistol or receiver that are first made into a pistol can be converted back and forth. If it started as a rifle or was originally a receiver that was first assembled into a rifle it is stuck as a rifle.
            atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm

            January 15, 2023 10:54 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Jim M

          Everything I've read (including input from my FFL) indicates lowers registered as "other" can be made into either a pistol or a rifle. If initially made into a rifle it must stay a rifle. A pistol can be made into a rifle later and switched back to a pistol at any time. Either becomes an SBR if it meets the requirements.

          January 15, 2023 10:49 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Armando

    Another long winded article which leads one to believe the government has no idea what it's doing.

    September 7, 2022 8:32 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      NetRanger

      Oh, they know what they're doing! Very much so, in fact. What they are doing is INFRINGING, over and over and over and over. Another poster claimed we need mass not compliance. Well, that may be one answer, but, the 2A writers understood exactly what these ATFers what and it was designed to stop it. "STOP INFRINGING, YOU TRAITORS!" Should be our motto.

      October 26, 2022 3:37 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    James

    Is the recover 20/20 pistol braces legal?

    August 23, 2022 10:23 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Michael Ojeda

    I'm a relatively new gun owner. I'm retired and decided to take up a hobby that would also offer me some preparation and protection in the event of any unfortunate incidents. I have been looking into 9mm PCC's with great interest but find it disheartening that the ATF seems to be stepping all over my toes and is trying to prevent me from enjoying my GOD GIVEN RIGHT as an american to own and bear arms. Brace - no brace, does it really matter. It's still a gun and it will still shoot bullets. Why are they so set against it? The politicians fight against "we the people" and self defense yet they have their own private security and don't seem to worry about "braces - no braces" when it comes to their own safety. Doesn't seem right to me.

    July 31, 2022 6:01 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    jzEllis

    still confused on why the ATF has ANY regulation on the length, weight and size of MY AR15, never-mind whether it has a stock or brace. we've gotten so deep into clown world with these gun regulations that I'm surprised there isn't a mass movement to abolish the ATF out right.

    July 22, 2022 9:48 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Uscitizen

      amen
      Defund the F out of the ATF

      September 9, 2022 2:49 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Donnie

    SCOTUS just released NYSPRA V Bruen and smashed the Anti’s pulse we have 4 more progun determinations for them to make but now we have to wait till next year..
    Between the PROgun decision today and smashing the liberal’s Roe V Wade next week..
    I’m feeling pretty good to be a proGod progun prolife proAmerican today!!!!!!

    June 23, 2022 9:33 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Wingnut

      SCOTUS issued four "GVR" on the 30th - the last session day - for four 2nd Amendment cases that had requested writs of certiorari. A GVR: Granted, Vacated & Remanded. It's a way for SCOTUS to efficiently deal with similar cases and those involving the same principles in a majority decision rendered during that court session. The order that went with each of the four charged the respective Circuit Court with redoing its prior decision in light of the "Bruen" decision. Only one of them was about concealed carry, Young v. Hawaii (remanded back to 9th Circuit). The other three were about ammunition magazines and so-called "Assault Weapons". Duncan v. Bonta regarding California's 10-round magazine was remanded back to the 9th Circuit. ANJR v. Bruck, New Jersey's magazine ban was remanded back to its Circuit Court, and Bianchi v. Frosh, Maryland's "Assault Weapons" ban was remanded back to its Circuit Court. In addition, the 9th Circuit has done same with a couple cases it had on hold, sending them back to their District Courts for do-overs in light of Justice Thomas' rationale underlying Bruen's majority decision. Magazine and semi-auto weapons bans, are going to bite the dust nationwide over the next few months. The State of Washington has just been sued over its brand new magazine laws that went into effect on 1 July.

      July 8, 2022 11:55 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Wingnut

      The other SCOTUS case that will very likely affect some of ATF's regulatory rulemaking is West Virginia v. EPA in which the SCOTUS majority decision told the EPA it wasn't a legislative body, but a regulatory agency bounded by the Congressional Acts that created it and provided authorization for its regulatory activities. The EPA had gone too far afield in its regulatory power attempting to regulate aspects of West Virginia's power generating that wasn't authorized by Congress. A lawsuit has already been brought based on WV v. EPA that challenges some of ATF's recent regulatory activity. Nothing is a sure thing, but I predict at least some of what ATF has done recently will bite the dust as lacking any authority that can be derived from the original 1934 National Firearms Act, the 1968 Gun Control Act, or the 1986 Firearm Owners' Protection Act. The current SCOTUS has much stricter interpretations regarding government agency regulatory boundaries and limits.

      July 9, 2022 1:17 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      elle

      I will never understand how someone can be "pro gun" and "pro life", seems like an oxymoron to me or "pro gun" and "anti choice" at the same time. why are you in favor for some peoples rights but not others?

      fwiw im pro gun and pro choice.

      August 3, 2022 2:13 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        ff

        im pro gun and pro life for the baby. I don,t think killing a baby should be a choice unless there are special circumstances

        August 5, 2022 7:16 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      j pom

      What does guns and abortion have to do with each other?
      I agree with you gun stance but your a bit clueless as to taking away a woman's rights is what god would want. How do you know ?
      Limiting one right and extolling another is ludicrous. Either your free to do what you want or your not. sounds fascist to me.

      September 5, 2022 5:54 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Divinely Inspired

        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
        Preamble to the Declaration of Independence
        Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
        Luke 17:2
        “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”
        And now the gun issue
        Luke 11:21
        21“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.
        If anyone disagrees with these, I offer this verse
        2 Timothy 4:3
        3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

        September 7, 2022 3:23 pm
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    Dario

    I seriously don't get all this classification BS. If you can buy and convert a legal gun into a non legal gun buy buying an additional plastic part then the whole idea is dumb and should never come to light as it only limits law abiding citizens. No criminal will care about it. All guns should be treated the exact same way. Just exclude rocket launchers and grenade launchers and the weapons that have a huge range of destructive power (those should be registered and regulated) and leave the normal guns the the discretion of their owners.
    Like what the hell is with this thing in CA about compliant rifles? This does not make any sense, it still shoots!

    April 1, 2022 1:29 am
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    Lyndon B. Jernigan

    Soooo.... Confused.

    If I mount a Magpul ACR folding stock onto a Dan Haga stock adaptor on my Stribog SP9A1 am I going to find myself playing cards in prison with OJ?

    Seriously.

    *Asking for a friend.

    March 7, 2022 6:03 pm
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      Theodore J Williams

      This is exactly what brought me here, have you found any answers?

      June 4, 2022 6:20 pm
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      Wingnut

      Yes. The Magpul ACR folding stock isn't a pistol brace, it's a shoulder stock. If you put a pistol brace onto the Dan Haga stock adapter and attach it to the SP9A1, you may escape the ATF -- for now. Familiarize yourself with the 4999 and the associated 18 pages with the three examples.

      July 28, 2022 4:20 am
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    Pistol Pete

    I cant see why the ATF is concerning itself with LEGAL purchasers of AR pistols. Most or all of these buyers are law abiding citizens, subjected to background checks. Should we not assume that the 'background check' is in place to make sure criminals are not buying these weapons? Are criminals concerned with background checks when finding weapons to kill people with? I think not. I do understand that short barrels and stocks make the guns more concealable. I get that. But ATF, I think if you vet the potential owners of those short rifles properly then you have done what you can do considering the second amendment. Let's end this debate and move on.

    February 13, 2022 12:11 pm
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    Jeff Hollowell

    Thank you. You would be surprised to find how hard this information is to find.

    January 8, 2022 9:57 am
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    Noemail

    It looks like Rick Quiggley is an AH or an ATF troll, though not much difference really. The ATF should not exist. It's operation is in conflict with the 2nd amendment. It should be criminals that are illegal not the form of a firearm. Since they have arbitrarily decided to differentiate between a 16" barrel and a 15" barrel, those who want to whittle away our rights to bear weapons with technicalities should not cry like Quiggley when the tecnicallity benefits gun owners. Come on Quickly drop the ATF propaganda and everyone use common sense. A firearm is a firearm. The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Pretty clear except to the liars trying to take our rights.

    December 28, 2021 10:36 am
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    Noemail

    Hey Jackie ; If you really wrote this, good job! The humor is as good as the presentation and very appropriate. Thanks.

    December 28, 2021 10:25 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jacki Billings, Editor

      I did write it! Thanks for reading!

      December 29, 2021 6:28 am
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      battlecat

      I agree with that 100%. She did a very good job. I also think it's really cool of you to let her know that. We'll done to both of you!

      March 12, 2022 12:04 pm
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    007 bond

    Flood the market with a lower price brace <$50 so that it be "common use" item. The more brace owners there are, the more difficult to ban them. That was problem with bump stocks.

    December 14, 2021 7:19 pm
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    Rick Quigley

    Well on the at brace up roar I’m a gun owner I’m a firm believer in our right to bear arms if you have a brace on the recoil tube of your At and it still has the Ar stock attached to the tube then come on one is able to shoulder it if one wants that would be considered a SBR period! Now if your forearm strap is attached to the At recoil tube without the original shoulder stock being in place then there is really no way to shoulder the At recoil tube then considered a At postal come on guys this is not brain surgery here it’s simple stuff everyone get your heads out of your butts ok you can not attach a brace to the at recoil tube slide stock and think it’s ok it’s not if able to shoulder the unit it is a SBR period ok. My god people come on!

    October 25, 2021 2:57 pm
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    S Dickerson

    If background check for legal ownership is their ultimate goal why not follow laws that are already in place. There are plenty of criminals for law enforcement to chase without creating more from thin air. Stop going for soft targets and start helping those that support law and order. One suggestion is LETS MAKE ILLEGAL DRUGS ILLEGAL AGAIN and spend our efforts cleaning our streets of poison peddlers that probably 90% of crime stem from!

    September 19, 2021 7:20 am
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    Sean Mullen Mullen

    I looked on the ATF site didn't see and restrictions on barrel lengths for pistols there are restriction on if its less than 26 inches OAL when it is compact with (brace removed) then you can not put a vertical grip on it or it will become a NFA item.

    September 10, 2021 9:20 pm
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    john

    Let's be honest, the brace was designed to assist in a certain use case and then was corrupted by the masses as a way to skirt the SBR designation. Time to pay up boyz, we had our fun.

    August 16, 2021 8:31 am
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      Brandon J Blair

      Ok, lets be honest. Should sbr's or silencers be an ATF item in the first place? WTF. I thought the ATF said they were already busy. Maybe it would be the best if the ATF themselves would cease and desist.

      September 24, 2021 4:58 am
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      Big K

      John, are you qualified to interpret the law? Where is your degree from?

      December 30, 2021 5:47 am
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    Richard Windisch

    If this rule passes, then owners of Broomhandle Mausers, Lugers, Browning Hi Powers and Colt Peacemakers that were slotted and fitted for a shoulder stock would also be required to obtain a tax stamp for every one in their collection. Those are some very expensive firearms, mostly in possession of collectors. I wonder how they will react.

    August 1, 2021 7:20 am
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      rob

      Don't forget they will also be required to mark the firearm with the maker of the SBR the same as a person who builds an AR15 SBR does.

      September 17, 2021 5:09 am
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    Alternator

    Your summary explanation is incorrect. It almost makes sense, whereas the actual legislation is incoherent. You therefore failed to "explain" it properly. Also, you left off one option if the legislation passes: BLOODY CIVIL WAR.

    July 29, 2021 8:23 am
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    Steve

    Probably an unpopular opinion around here but I feel like all these “pistols” are clearly SBR’s. If we want to make an exception for disabled shooters, I’m all for that. But let’s call them what they are, SBR’s. Now the bigger issue is the tax stamp, I don’t believe that should be a requirement to own an SBR.

    July 29, 2021 5:50 am
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      RAY

      Ypu are correct sir, the real issue is, why do we need stamp for an sbr anyway?!?

      July 29, 2021 9:00 pm
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        john

        Agree on both counts. Keep the classification system simple and get rid of the extra money grab.

        August 16, 2021 8:32 am
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        Ct

        The stamp makes the weapon registered for future confiscation.

        January 14, 2023 9:10 pm
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      Kevin G.

      There really shouldn't be any requirement for anything SBR or otherwise. Shall not be infringed. We are not obligated to just accept this. They skirted around the Constitution first. Don't tell me we have to play fair now.

      September 19, 2021 8:55 am
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      jzEllis

      EXACTLY! Shouldn't be ANY Tax stamps for ANY fire arms.

      July 22, 2022 9:49 am
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    Tony

    I impatiently wait for the final verdict on whether I can shoot my AR pistol with a buttstock or a brace (which is painful for me). Im happy to register and jump through the ATF hoops to use for self defense and at the range, but not happy about the stamp or the long approval process. We wouldn't be here if this country would find some middle ground on gun ownership, safety, regulation, control... Whatever you want to call it.

    July 28, 2021 1:35 pm
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    Gustafsyn

    To hell with the ATF. Slap a stock on everything and run it.

    July 28, 2021 11:52 am
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      jzEllis

      This!!

      July 22, 2022 9:50 am
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    Josh

    So, can I shoulder my AR pistol? I see people on YouTube doing it all the time.

    July 27, 2021 7:09 pm
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      Tony

      Great question. Ive shot my MK18 several times at the correct 26" collapsed length with brace as well as extended into an SBR on my shoulder. No one has called me out at my firing range. Yet.

      July 28, 2021 1:40 pm
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    johnny

    arm braces are a farce, they are and always will be a loophole for SBRs. Implement the reclassification.

    July 16, 2021 12:35 pm
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      jimmy

      Nah, the NFA is unconstitutional. Abolish the AFT.

      July 23, 2021 12:43 pm
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      not a fag

      commie

      July 28, 2021 6:07 pm
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      Chris

      You're correct. It was so obvious the first time I saw one at a shop what was going on. Not saying anything in regards to right or wrong. It's just a SBR. The whole thing really has to suck for the folks that actually need one for physical reasons.

      July 28, 2021 7:42 pm
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    Yaboi

    This is very unconstitutional, especially for the handicap. I hate when the law abiding citizens are taxed hard In every shape way and form. Instead of coming after us how about you go after the criminals that possess these weapons and use them for bad intent, Instead of trying to Tax and regulate The law abiding American citizens How about just putting a super Duper hefty fines/Penalties on the unregistered gun owners that possess this pieces of beauty. See now, I’m all about the right thing but the ATF is Going about this the wrong way and looking a little money hungry right now. I do not support these new rules and hope they get thrown out!!

    June 25, 2021 11:14 pm
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    Gus Zumbana

    This is insanity, good article for sure .

    June 25, 2021 6:34 pm
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    James

    The whole NFA 1934 is unconstitutional. If an enumerated constitutional right, like voting can't be taxed (poll taxes are outlawed), then why is any gun ownership or transfer taxed?

    June 21, 2021 5:57 pm
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      Wicky Wild Wild West

      Bingo!

      July 31, 2021 4:16 am
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    James truesdale

    Is there any difference in a victor saint pistol and say a Glock 19 with a recover tactical brace it terms of how ATF s looking at pistol braces?

    June 21, 2021 8:03 am
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    Bob Johnson

    I think that even the SBR law is unconstitutional. If we want to have a 12.5 inch barrel with a stock, so what? I believe it's unconstitutional and criminal to require us to reigiater, pay a $200 tax stamp, and wait a year to be able to use it. We need to be more aggressive and not only squash the stupid pistol brace proposal but also eliminate the overreaching SBR rules as well.

    June 20, 2021 11:04 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Robert Shirley

      Amd the overreaching duppressor rules, and the overreaching machinegun rules...

      June 24, 2021 8:26 pm
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    sound awake

    marjorie taylor greene just introduced legislation to dismantle the atf
    it wont pass
    and biden wouldnt sign it even if it did
    but everybody knows that the republicans will be holding the purse strings come next fall
    the atf would face big funding cuts if they dont back down from pistol braces and 80 percent receivers
    good for her

    June 18, 2021 4:58 pm
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    JON

    Well written and informative article. It begs the questions about barrel replacement , brace removal "alternatives" to a static wait and see. When I acquired a braced pistol I was able to live without out it. Now after shoulder surgery I cannot operate without it. We seniors make use of these.

    June 16, 2021 8:53 am
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    Steve Waltermire

    Someone need to sue the ATF and get the whole Tax for the NFT declared unconstitutional. In addition to all of the other ATF rules that are.

    June 16, 2021 8:47 am
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      sound awake

      i dont care about the tax
      or even the registration so much
      i care about not being able to bring an nfa weapon across state lines
      i live right on the border of 2 states that i shoot a lot in
      the pistol brace is the only way to get out of that trick bag

      June 18, 2021 5:01 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        jimmy

        Despite the unconstitutional nature of the NFA, i completely agree. I travel a lot. If i want more firepower than a normal pistol it needs to stay hidden. Only way to do this is an SBR or AR/AK pistol. NFA requires special advanced notice and additional papaer work, thus an AR pistol is a no brainer.

        July 23, 2021 12:50 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Alternator

    Your "voice" isn't going to stop a damned thing. There is no de-escalation here. You must out-attack the attacker or the pool of blood will be yours. Get off the "X" and go on the offense.

    June 16, 2021 6:20 am
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    Matthew Seman

    Thanks for the information. Seems the policies being made are done by those uninformed politicians and not common sense. I feel they are scared of something they know nothing or little about. If I lean my handgun alongside a barrier does it change it mechanically NO. If I have a brace on my pistol and the use it shouldered does it change it NO IT DOES NOT. Just another MONEY GRAB TO DISCOURAGE THE LAWFUL FIREARMS USER

    June 16, 2021 6:11 am
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      Chris

      I built a SBR to avoid all this crap because it was absolutely going to happen. Not getting into the right or wrong of NFA. But please explain how you think your shouldered AR pistol isn't an SBR. Definitely a little less comfortable, but how is it not a rifle?

      July 28, 2021 7:50 pm
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        Mitch

        Because they were specifically designed to accommodate the rules published by the ATF, and the ATF had already certified that they did so. The entire purpose of them was to ABIDE by the rules as written, but since certain people didn't like them, they decided to change the rules after the fact to make them illegal anyway, because reasons.
        That's the problem here: every time they make something illegal, law abiding people go looking for an alternative that IS legal, and go to great lengths to make SURE that it's legal, just to have another rule made right afterwards MAKING it illegal.

        August 6, 2021 8:26 pm
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    Phillip Holden

    Excellent article! Great job at condensing this convoluted topic into simple language a newbie can comprehend. I've tried explaining to several people, but now I'll just send them to this article.

    I have one question, and I'll ask those on this forum as well: On the 'proposed regulations' comment pages, I've yet to ever engage in the process over concerns of ending up on a new 'list.' Are we simply giving them a quick and simple list of all 'possible' AR owners to make it easier for them when the confiscations begin? Almost a 'danged if you do/don't' situation when it comes to responding to these proposals. Any opinions or experiences from others on here?

    June 16, 2021 4:07 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Jeffrey

      All you have to supply is a first and last name and an email address. If you are concerned don't use your real information.

      June 17, 2021 11:38 am
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      Jeffrey

      I read the original one a few months back but glad I clicked again to see the June update. Thanks for keeping us informed!

      June 17, 2021 11:43 am
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        Jacki Billings

        We try! Thanks for reading!

        June 18, 2021 6:46 am
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    Patrick

    These two links will take you to the automatic forms to share your thoughts on the proposed bans through the ATF. If our forefathers could stand up to British Redcoats for our freedom, you can take 5 minutes to fill out these forms. Actually the GOA has already supplied a form letter, so you won't even need to wrack your noggins too hard for what to say. Time to act is now, not after a ban takes place.

    STOP THE WAR ON “GHOST GUNS”
    .gunowners.org/na05252021/

    STOP THE ATF’S PISTOL-BRACED GUN BAN
    .gunowners.org/na06102021/

    June 15, 2021 4:56 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    tirod3

    ATF form 4999 is the current way it will be determined if a braced pistol is an SBR or not. 90 day clock is ticking now and comments are needed. Copy/Paste letters will be sorted as just one comment, write your own, about the criteria, not the illegitimate birth of the agents who may have been under the influence when they wrote this.

    Weight, overall length, length of the buffer, length of the barrel, what sights are allowed and which are not, max of 4 points combined from two schedules and good luck.

    For many of us - a change in barrel and installing a stock will suffice if necessary, I've been looking at building a .375 SOCOM and all I would need is a barrel and bolt. AR Pistols won't go away, they will just become other AR's - that's the beauty of the beast.

    BTW, this is basically an attempt to simply make more people criminals, which is what outlaw governments do, to gain more power, and the people to blame are the 81 million Biden voters. Dead or alive.

    June 8, 2021 12:24 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Dennis Eagleberger

      Leave Our Rights alone or You become the criminal, and the enemy.

      June 15, 2021 6:18 pm
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    Eric Zubick

    "shall not be infringed"

    June 4, 2021 6:55 am
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    Edgar McDonald II

    Pistol conversion to Carbine kits????

    Any word on that?

    May 23, 2021 9:37 am
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    Mrt

    Shall not be infringed.

    May 2, 2021 12:24 pm
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    Jason

    And, by the way, anything that helps the shooter hit their intended target is a good thing.

    For law abiding citizens it keeps them from shooting an unintended target possibly landing with legal issues.

    For criminals...well hopefully they are shooting at other criminals...but otherwise...at least we have a better idea what or who their intended target was...and can help establish motive?

    April 30, 2021 1:28 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Jason

    Braces should be a non-NFA item.

    AS should all "short barreled rifles".

    Adding any equipment to pistols decreases their concelabilitey and that's a BONUS for public safety as you are more likely to see the armed criminal coming?

    April 30, 2021 12:43 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Tex

    Long live the shouldered pistol brace!

    April 26, 2021 11:35 am
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    Tmoney

    F00K the ATF!

    April 16, 2021 8:04 am
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    Ruger T

    This is off topic, but does anyone know if the ATF regulates and, after a background check and fees, allows longer blade lengths for knives? What about the ability to carry them?

    April 10, 2021 8:13 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Joe

      Blade lengths are typically regulated by state and local laws. I know of no such regulations from the BATFE. Check your local laws.

      April 16, 2021 6:43 pm
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        Ruger T

        That's what I've always thought, but someone I met claims he has ATF approval to carry blades up to 8". He also has the same uncommon name as a person who lost his job for lying about his military record.

        April 19, 2021 3:45 pm
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          Al

          Knives are neither alcohol, tobacco, firearms, nor explosives, so BATFE shouldn't have an opinion.

          Sounds like BS.

          June 15, 2021 11:16 am
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            Gk Exp

            Being proxies for an anti Constitution government, they can do whatever they want.

            June 15, 2021 4:47 pm
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    John Wimmer

    Every state should become a sanctuary firearm state and tell the atf to mind their business

    April 9, 2021 5:15 am
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    Dexter Winslet Bham. P D retired.

    According to the Dick Act, the NFA is illegal. Resist and fight.

    April 8, 2021 6:34 pm
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      Tmoney

      Yeet em

      April 16, 2021 8:05 am
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    Hansum Dan

    Johnny hated the shockwave, but I have had 3 and loved them. Yes, when shouldering it is not soft on the shoulder, but I like the minimalist design. In order to convince your local gun-grabbing authorities, it's not a bad idea to add some velcro straps to it, and you can use that strap to hold a pad onto the back when no one is looking.

    April 2, 2021 5:36 pm
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    Mike B

    I live in CT where ARs are banned but what is interesting is that the loophole (for now) is to build a firearm classified as 'other'. Typical this is an AR with a 14.5 or 12.5 inch barrel in common AR calibers (.223/.308/300BO, etc.), vertical fore grip and arm brace (can be collapsing arm brace as collapsing butt stocks are illegal in CT too). The Irony of course is that in an effort to 'protect' the good citizens of CT from evil ARs the law ends up effectively pushing people to shorter and more concealable ARs (so typical gun law logic). I assume purchasing a short AR classified as 'other' is legal in other states so it would be interesting to see a similar article on 'other' firearms classification here at some point and what the ranges of accessories are available as an 'other' before list crosses a line to become a 'pistol', 'rifle, or 'SBR'. Also, I wonder if any of this ATF arm brace stuff discussed here affects the 'other' firearms in my state as its the only way to legally own an AR here.

    January 1, 2021 5:46 am
    • Commenter Avatar
      Fyrfytr998

      I live in CT too. Even if they revisit braces and ban them. All an owner of a CT “Other” need do is remove the offending brace. As long as your barrel is more than 12 inches. Your overall length is more than 26 inches. And your length of pull of the buffer tube is less than 13.5 inches. Your legally defined firearm will be fine as long as the other ATF firearm requirements are met. Original CT “Others” we’re not built with braces. At the time they were useless to put on, because you could not shoulder them. Once the ATF said you could shoulder a brace, they became all the rage.

      January 4, 2021 11:09 pm
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    Josh

    The SBR argument is ridiculous to begin with. Practically nobody who owns a brace is using it as a brace. We all know this. Arguments over length and configuration are stupid and a waste of time and money. There's no good reason for it then to obstruct law abiding citizens. The laws have no impact on criminals.

    December 31, 2020 4:29 pm
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    Nicholas Flamel

    Generally speaking, I'd like to see the NFA repealed. Having said that, I clearly do not support anything being reclassified to fall within the restrictions of said Act.

    However, I am a law abiding citizen and will always use my firearms for any lawful purpose. I'm thinking about tax stamping my MPX anyway, then throwing a stock on it.

    December 30, 2020 10:45 am
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    Nes

    As I recall from reading the ATF proposal, any braces already sold would be grandfathered. So if you want one, I suggest you buy it now.

    December 30, 2020 8:36 am
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      Connor Haughton

      There is no guarantee that this will be the case; they could just as easily follow the bump stock playbook and ban existing possession through executive order. I think it's less likely, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

      December 30, 2020 5:19 pm
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    Bob

    And as Walt Kelley's "Pogo" oft said, "We has met the enemy and he is us!"

    Look through just about any gun magazine and you will see somebody with an AR Pistol and a brace using it exactly as it was not intended to be used, i.e. as stock for a short barrelled rifle. Talk about feeding the BATF all the ammunition it needs to take a new position regarding braces.

    December 29, 2020 8:14 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Allen Dye

      Bob, I've thought about this and at one time, I agreed with your premise. But then, I began to think about the phrase "as it was (not) intended." Does the ATF get to decide intent? If one "conceals" a long gun, what does that mean? If one fires a rifle like a pistol, what does that mean? Many of our gun laws (i.e. firearm classification laws) are silly and came from an era when legislators attempted to create "gotchas" for organized criminals. They did (and do) little to actually stem crime, but are effective in stacking charges against criminals. This leads me back to intent; NFA and the Firearms Act was intended to entangle bad guys who were already in the act of committing other crimes. Not necessarily for the person who simply was enjoying the weapon. See how that intent thing is so slippery?

      December 30, 2020 9:28 am
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        Bob

        I don't disagree with your position at all, Allen. It's not a guessing game for the BATF when the law clearly states that a brace is a device to stabilize an AR pistol and shall not be used as a de facto shoulder stock and folks are posting pictures of whatever the "brace du jur" is jammed up against their shoulders firing off a string. It's the old "if you don't like the law, change it. Don't just ignore or mock it publicly." That sort of logic won't fly and can only bring problems.

        Coming from a LE background, I know that there is nothing so great or innovative that a dedicated copper, somewhere, cannot screw it up for everyone. It didn't take long for stun guns to hit the street and some moron think to himself or say to his buddies "Damn, this would be a great interrogation tool" I believe that NYPD first made the news with this novel approach (not to pick on NYPD). LOL!

        My point was simply if given a gift (an accommodation or loophole in the SBR law/classification) don't look that gift horse in the mouth and don't shoot it either.

        December 30, 2020 2:07 pm
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    Roguesam

    Personally, I think I am going to SBR my CZ Bren S1 and be done with all of the drama. YMMV....

    December 29, 2020 8:13 pm
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      Josh Thomas

      I would not bother registering any thing yet. If you want to register just weight thier is a good chance that if BATF changes thier mined again you will be able to register for free.

      December 30, 2020 6:44 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Clay

        I'm not doing cartwheels over a "free registration"..... because it's exactly that....A REGISTRATION with many rules and caveats. No free ride here.

        December 31, 2020 9:45 am
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      Nicholas Flamel

      Hear, hear!

      December 30, 2020 10:48 am
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    Retired SOF Guy

    A better question would be “Should the NFA, GCA, CCW permits etc all be done away with or should we remove the 2A from the Bill of Rights?”

    Don’t miss the bigger point in all of this—the NFA clearly violates the plain language of the 2A.

    December 29, 2020 7:30 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Mark

      I think you raise a valid point about permitting in general. Who has authority? Why do they have it? What are they doing with it? Do they work as intended? Do they keep us safe?

      That being said, I do take GREAT umbrage with your argument’s “all or nothing” stance. We can have a second amendment AND have sensible laws about their ownership and use. The NRA has supported gun legislation throughout much of the 20th century.

      Additionally, while the words are plain, they are anything but clear in their intent. The 2nd amendment is a grammatical nightmare that leaves the most excellent of scholars scratching their heads about whether it was intended as a protection of personal rights or group action.

      “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

      Is the protection for:
      a militia (a requirement for freedom)
      AND our right to bare arms

      or a militia (required for freedom, a right of the people)

      ALSO did you catch that part about a well REGULATED militia? It’s hard for me to swallow the notion that our forefathers were against rules.

      January 5, 2021 6:43 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        BC

        Old thread, I know, but IMHO the wording of 2A is meant to ensure all citizens have access to firearm ownership should a militia be needed. The fledgling U.S. could not afford to arm the militia if called upon, so it was necessary to allow citizens to arm themselves and be ready to defend freedom. In more modern parlance it would be, "Patriots needed for militia. BYOG." Whatever the threat to our freedoms, whether from within or without, the 2nd Amendment is there to declare our right to defend that freedom and shall not be infringed.

        June 12, 2021 1:03 pm
        • Commenter Avatar
          Al

          This is the correct answer. It is "because we might need a militia" that our rights to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed."

          There is no requirement to belong to a militia to own a firearm. Period.

          June 15, 2021 11:23 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        Robert Shirley

        Sensible gun laws? I can think of maybe two. No, one.
        All or nothing. Age 18 to purchase. If felon is too dangerous, keep him locked up.

        June 24, 2021 8:37 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Bob

    I've avoided the Pistol w/brace configuration in any buy or build. I like the ergonomics of it (my nephews' is a blast to shoot), but it always seemed a loophole ready to be choked. One way I thought about would be an extended buffer tube w/fat padding, tucked between the collar bone and cheek. That would seem to bridge the loophole.

    December 29, 2020 6:52 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Clay

      Be mindful of your overall length (26" max) and barrel length if you are trying to call it a pistol. Just real easy to bumble into SBR territory if you don't really, carefully, research the law.

      December 31, 2020 9:40 am
  • Commenter Avatar
    Scott

    Absolutely should be legal!!!!

    The use by able bodied shooters not withstanding, the initial reason for their existence is still very valid. They were designed to allow disabled shooters to participate in a shoot sport that they might not otherwise be able to safely.

    Making them illegal is taxing them under the NFA means depriving a segment of the population of their 2A Right based on a HANDICAP!!!

    Imagine doing the same to wheelchairs or crutches.

    December 29, 2020 6:44 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Bob

    If you have a pistol with a folding stock adapter, where are the length measurements taken? From the end of the barrel to where?

    December 29, 2020 6:40 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Chuck

      Any gun with a barrel under 16” is not allowed to have an actual stock, folding or not, without becoming an SBR and requiring a tax stamp.

      December 30, 2020 4:34 am
      • Commenter Avatar
        William

        Well in the picture included in this article it is a supposed picture of a "Form 1", the stamp is on the left making it a "Form 4". likely for that suppressor laying on it. By the way a SBR form 1 takes me 22-23 days from sending it to having it in hand. What took me the longest was Form 4 for suppressor. My form 4 for a machine gun was much shorter.

        June 15, 2021 5:35 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Bob

      Thank you Chuck for that!
      Question, a pistol with a folding brace adapter. Where are the measurements taken. ie... end of barrel to where?

      January 3, 2021 6:26 pm
      • Commenter Avatar
        Tom

        You measure from the end of the barrel to the end of the buffer tube.

        ATF is taking the position that firearms equipped with stabilizing braces need to have their overall length measured with the brace folded or to the end of the receiver extension if the brace is stationary and non-adjustable.

        March 23, 2021 4:22 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Nathan

    This Problem is being handled all wrong I think, the question is not are braces allowed. the real question is where is the authority to enforce an Act of Congress and what jurisdiction is this said act enforceable? Acts of Congress are not enforceable nor are they constitutional in the Fifty States.

    December 29, 2020 6:35 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    terry_tr6

    where does the home builder stand? A very functional version of the tailhook brace can be made in a few minutes from a short piece of 6"pvc pipe, a heat gun, and a nut and bolt. do we need to get ATF approval for building something that duplicates a commercial item?

    December 29, 2020 6:18 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Clay

      Absolutely. If these braces are banned or registered, the penalty for fabricating such a restricted item would be a felony, just the same as fabricating a drop in auto sear for an AR. Same law, same penalty. "10 years and $10,000". Think about it.......can you be charged with having an unregistered suppressor if you are using an oil filter on the muzzle? HELL YES ! It's a felony.

      December 29, 2020 6:40 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Clay

    The BATF & E was emboldened by the lack of backlash over the "Bump Stock" ban. This stock did not "make a machine gun", but it played well in the media. Especially the anti gun media. Trump didn't even say much about. Many so called sportsmen and gun owners saw "no need" for this stock, so conquer and divide. It is the same on AR-15's, AK's and so on. The Second Amendment is not about "hunting" nor is it based on "need". It is about a Right, not a blessing or permission from the Government. If we loose the Senate, we'll have "hell to pay" when it comes to guns, ammo, magazines, self defense. I am very worried. So many hunters and gun owners don't even belong to a pro-gun organization. Many of these same people are out trying to buy ammo, guns, and so on to hoard. Not even thinking about the future for our Children and Grandchildren.

    December 29, 2020 6:17 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Retired SOF Guy

      Yep. It’s sad how many “gun friendly folks” think I’m “extreme” in my beliefs that any free American should be able to own, use and carry whatever they want. No permits, no background checks, just treat the 2A as a Right.

      December 29, 2020 8:18 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Boolitschuuter

    The fundamental problem is two fold. First is there is no congressional oversight of ATF. 2nd is the NFA is an unconstitutional infringement on 2A. There is no justifiable reason for SBRs, SBSs, or suppressors to be taxed and regulated differently from any other firearm or firearm accessory.

    December 29, 2020 6:15 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      William

      Well think about it like this, "Money". I have Photo, finger prints, ect. on file at atf/doj and today for a small fee of $85.00 I was printed and photo'd just the pre screen the TSA to get on a airplane.

      June 15, 2021 5:41 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Cutter

    ***QUESTION ?*** So where does a tail hook brace fall it the definition of “brace” requires the Velcro strap ?
    Thanks

    December 29, 2020 5:32 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    John A Bird

    I am not a proponent of braces or the ATF! If you are using your build for tactile purposes, you should be able to build it to satisfy your requirements. When the SHTF do you really care what the ATF thinks?

    December 29, 2020 5:04 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Down River

    I haven't seen anyone address the pistol brace and sub-guns like the Scoprion or B&T. 9MM pistols with SB braces. All the discussion is focused on AR/AK pistols. Does the ATF brace logic apply to these subgun/pistols as well?

    December 29, 2020 4:54 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Chuck

      Yes. Caliber is of no consequence.

      December 29, 2020 6:07 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      David, PPT Editor

      Yes, caliber and style doesn't matter.

      December 29, 2020 7:58 pm
  • Commenter Avatar
    Connor Haughton

    Please add a section emphasizing the fact that you CANNOT modify a brace in any way that makes it work better as a stock. For example the rubber plugs that are sold by a 3rd party and placed in the space at the back of the SBA3 brace, making it less functional as a brace and intended to be fired from shoulder. I'm looking for the ATF letter now, ill post when I find it.

    Good article, I've owned AR pistols since 2015 and have followed the many ATF letters shared and debated on arfcom. The NFA as a whole is a clunky outdated law that was passed to deal with Prohibition era gun violence. At the very LEAST remove SBRs, SBS's, and suppressors from falling under the NFA; in a perfect world it would be repealed, but we have to choose our battles wisely.

    I think it's a matter of when they will be restricted, rather than if, based on recent developments. I encourage every gun owner to drop $50 on a budget blade-style brace and keep it in your safe. There are already several MILLION braced firearms in the U.S., the higher we make that figure the harder it will be for them to restrict ownership. If nothing else, you can get a free SBR stamp if/when they are deemed unlawful.

    December 28, 2020 4:15 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Clay

      The problem with the "free tax stamp" is that it creates a legal registry for future use such as confiscation. This same system has been used at least three times since 1933. One was the "streetsweeper shotgun", another was the "Commando Arms" Thompson look-alike. The other was the 1968 Registration Amnesty. May have been other "free registrations". The Form 4 Stamp changes up many things you can do with that registered weapon. You need written permission to take it out of state. You can't loan it to anyone. you can't send it to get it worked on. The list of "can'ts" is long. The BATF&E can legally come to your house at anytime and demand that you produce the registered item so that they may be sure you have not disposed of it. The list goes on and on. Yes, it's a choice better than surrender, but maybe just what the Gov't wants...a registration. What's next is anybody's guess. Prob all AR's and so on. This is also a trap to the uninformed. A felony conviction. This waffling back and forth creates much confusion and false information. Just perfect scenario to bumble into an arrest.

      December 29, 2020 6:34 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Clayton

      Connor, you are exactly right on modifying a brace. Very good point. This would be a very easy way to bumble into a Felony arrest. Good info and valid point! If the law was enforced in it's strictest wording, I think one would be in violation if you just took the velcro strap off of a brace. Remember, common sense, or ignorance of the law does not matter.

      December 29, 2020 7:30 pm
    • Commenter Avatar
      Retired SOF Guy

      Yeah, the old rewriting history claim of “Prohibition is why we have NFA” rears its head again.

      Prohibition ended in 1933, with the 21A proposed in Feb and passed in Dec. The NFA ‘34 was passed in June 1934, half a year after Prohibition formally ended and easily over a year after the handwriting was on the wall that Prohibition was ending.

      And of course Capone and his buddies could afford the taxes—normal Americans couldn’t.

      And the socialist FDR who signed NFA? The same guy who proposed Court packing and so many other ills? He lovingly referred to Stalin as Uncle Joe.

      Fight to end the NFA—not grudgingly accept it.

      December 29, 2020 8:28 pm
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